Elizabeth Day, Fearne Cotton and Rangan Chatterjee - Why deep conversations matter more than ever (E230)

The High Performance

Episode Details

Published Date

Fri, 15 Dec 2023 01:00:41 GMT

Duration

1:01:45

Explicit

False

Guests

No guests specified

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Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and may not capture all the nuances or details discussed in the podcast episode.
Notes

In this special roundtable, podcast hosts Fearne Cotton (Happy Place), Elizabeth Day (How to Fail), and Rangan Chatterjee (Feel Better, Live More) join Jake and Damian to explore the impact of long-form conversations, the interviews that have transformed their outlooks, and how making podcasts has changed their life.


This episode is a deep dive into how powerful meaningful conversations can be. The hosts collectively share the importance of these deep conversations in fostering empathy, understanding, and compassion to others. When exploring the episodes that have changed their lives, Elizabeth and Rangan reflect on their conversations with Mo Gawdat and Edith Eger about creating a safe space within your own mind and reframing a negative thought into a positive one. Fearne, Jake and Damian also share the episodes that shocked, challenged and inspired them the most.


Elizabeth highlights how opening up about her own struggles with fertility created an open and honest dialogue with her guests and her listeners. They agree on how these meaningful conversations extend beyond the recording studio, emphasising that everyone has the ability to engage in these important topics with their friends, family and colleagues. This episode invites listeners to recognise the potential for positive change in their own lives by engaging in profound conversations and focusing on empathy.


Listen to the other podcasts mentioned here:

Happy Place: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/happy-place/id1353058891

Feel Better, Live More: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/feel-better-live-more-with-dr-rangan-chatterjee/id1333552422

How to Fail: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/how-to-fail-with-elizabeth-day/id1407451189



Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Summary
## Summary of the Podcast Episode ##

In this special podcasters' roundtable, hosts Fearne Cotton (Happy Place), Elizabeth Day (How to Fail), and Rangan Chatterjee (Feel Better, Live More) join Jake and Damian to explore the impact of long-form conversations, the interviews that have transformed their outlooks, and how making podcasts has changed their lives.

- The hosts emphasize the power of meaningful conversations in fostering empathy, understanding, and compassion.


- Elizabeth and Rangan reflect on their conversations with Mo Gawdat and Edith Eger, highlighting the importance of creating a safe space within one's mind and reframing negative thoughts into positive ones.


- Fearne, Jake, and Damian share the episodes that shocked, challenged, and inspired them the most.


- Elizabeth opens up about how sharing her own struggles with fertility led to open and honest dialogues with her guests and listeners.


- The hosts agree that these meaningful conversations extend beyond the recording studio, emphasizing that everyone has the ability to engage in these important topics with their friends, family, and colleagues.


- This episode invites listeners to recognize the potential for positive change in their own lives by engaging in profound conversations and focusing on empathy.


- The hosts recommend listening to the following podcasts:


- Happy Place: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/happy-place/id1353058891


- Feel Better, Live More: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/feel-better-live-more-with-dr-rangan-chatterjee/id1333552422


- How to Fail: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/how-to-fail-with-elizabeth-day/id1407451189

**Navigating the Impact of Long-Form Conversations**

**Episode Overview:**

In this special roundtable, podcast hosts Fearne Cotton (Happy Place), Elizabeth Day (How to Fail), Rangan Chatterjee (Feel Better, Live More), and Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes (High Performance) explore the transformative power of long-form conversations. They delve into the profound impact that meaningful discussions can have on fostering empathy, understanding, and compassion towards others.

**Key Insights:**

- **The Profound Impact of Deep Conversations:**

- Long-form conversations have the ability to foster empathy, understanding, and compassion by allowing individuals to connect on a deeper level, share their experiences, and challenge their perspectives.

- **Reframing Negative Thoughts:**

- Mo Gawdat, author of Solve for Happy, emphasizes the importance of reframing negative thoughts and focusing on the positive aspects of life's challenges. By challenging our negative thought patterns, we can cultivate a mindset that promotes happiness and well-being.

- **The Becky Brain:**

- Rangan Chatterjee introduces the concept of the "Becky brain," a metaphor for the anxious narrative that often dominates our thoughts. He suggests that by acknowledging and engaging in dialogue with this anxious part of our brains, we can train it to adopt a more positive and constructive mindset.

- **The Power of Vulnerability:**

- Elizabeth Day highlights the significance of vulnerability in creating open and honest dialogues. She emphasizes that by sharing personal struggles and experiences, individuals can create a safe space for others to engage in meaningful conversations and foster deeper connections.

- **The Antidote to Social Media Toxicity:**

- Podcasts are seen as an antidote to the toxicity and divisiveness prevalent on social media platforms. By providing a space for nuanced discussions and promoting empathy, podcasts can counter the negative impact of online interactions and foster a more positive and inclusive digital environment.

- **The Modern-Day Campfire:**

- Jake Humphrey likens podcasting to a modern-day campfire, where individuals can gather and engage in deep and meaningful conversations. He emphasizes the importance of creating a space for these conversations, particularly in a world that is becoming increasingly isolated and addicted to short-form content.

- **Gratitude for the Podcast Experience:**

- The podcast hosts express their gratitude for the opportunities and experiences that podcasting has brought into their lives. They highlight the freedom, personal growth, and the privilege of connecting with diverse individuals and hearing their unique stories.

**Overall Message:**

The episode underscores the transformative power of long-form conversations in fostering empathy, understanding, and compassion. It highlights the importance of vulnerability, reframing negative thoughts, and creating safe spaces for meaningful discussions. By embracing the power of deep conversations, individuals can enrich their lives and contribute to a more positive and connected world.

In this special roundtable discussion, Fearne Cotton, Elizabeth Day, and Rangan Chatterjee join Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes to explore the impact of long-form conversations, the transformative interviews they've experienced, and how podcasting has influenced their lives.

The hosts emphasize the power of meaningful conversations in fostering empathy, understanding, and compassion. Elizabeth and Rangan share how conversations with Mo Gawdat and Edith Eger inspired them to create safe spaces within their minds and reframe negative thoughts positively. Fearne, Jake, and Damian also discuss episodes that shocked, challenged, and inspired them.

Elizabeth highlights how opening up about her fertility struggles led to honest dialogues with guests and listeners. They agree that these meaningful conversations extend beyond the recording studio, emphasizing that everyone can engage in important discussions with friends, family, and colleagues.

The episode encourages listeners to recognize the potential for positive change through profound conversations and empathy. Recommendations for other podcasts are provided: Happy Place, Feel Better, Live More, and How to Fail.

The hosts express gratitude for the opportunity to engage in these conversations, acknowledging the positive impact it has had on their lives. They emphasize the importance of kindness, empathy, and humility in conducting interviews and engaging with others.

Through their experiences, the hosts have learned valuable lessons, including the ability to cope with failure, recognize that life is a story with choices, and appreciate the richness in all experiences. They also acknowledge the importance of admitting what they don't know and embracing a novice mindset.

The episode concludes with a commitment to reunite in a year to reflect on how their perspectives have evolved. The hosts express their appreciation for one another and wish each other a Merry Christmas.

Raw Transcript with Timestamps

[00:00.000 -> 00:06.300] Before we get going with this special podcasters roundtable episode of High Performance, which by the way is great fun,
[00:06.300 -> 00:12.720] I just want to let you know that this was filmed at a location called Chancery House in central London because we are now working
[00:12.960 -> 00:20.020] with an amazing group called Fora who provide the most incredible workspaces to allow everyone to remain an individual
[00:20.120 -> 00:24.700] whilst helping to drive a real team culture. We'll talk about team cultures in a moment,
[00:24.700 -> 00:25.920] but first, what can people expect from this conversation on High Performance, Damien? whilst helping to drive a real team culture. We'll talk about team cultures
[00:24.240 -> 00:28.120] in a moment, but first what can people
[00:25.920 -> 00:30.000] expect from this conversation on high
[00:28.120 -> 00:32.160] performance Damien? Yeah definitely, I
[00:30.000 -> 00:33.680] think most people hear these podcasters
[00:32.160 -> 00:35.240] being incredibly serious about the
[00:33.680 -> 00:37.280] content and the discussions that they
[00:35.240 -> 00:39.640] have. I think we got to meet them in a
[00:37.280 -> 00:41.320] far more fun and informal way that gives
[00:39.640 -> 00:43.160] us a greater insight into the people
[00:41.320 -> 00:45.200] behind the microphone. So we all came
[00:43.160 -> 00:45.760] together a few
[00:44.080 -> 00:47.680] weeks ago at a Fora building in
[00:45.760 -> 00:49.200] central London and I'm really pleased
[00:47.680 -> 00:51.280] to say that actually High Performance are
[00:49.200 -> 00:53.040] now basing ourselves at a Fora building in
[00:51.280 -> 00:55.560] London. This podcast was born in
[00:53.040 -> 00:57.200] lockdown. The very first episode we ever
[00:55.560 -> 00:59.080] recorded was on the south coast with
[00:57.200 -> 01:01.960] Ben Ainslie and at that time there was
[00:59.080 -> 01:03.280] no team. It was just me and Damien and Finn
[01:01.960 -> 01:05.360] who does our audio and a few
[01:03.280 -> 01:08.080] microphones traveling around. There was no need for an office, there was no need for us all to be together, but
[01:08.080 -> 01:13.080] now there is. And I'm really pleased we've chosen to work with Fora because not only
[01:13.080 -> 01:17.680] do they allow us to be individual, but also they know that wellness is at the heart of
[01:17.680 -> 01:21.680] a successful business these days. And they've got some amazing facilities so that if we
[01:21.680 -> 01:25.520] need to, we can take a break during the day and
[01:23.480 -> 01:28.040] rest and recharge. I'm sure you'll be in
[01:25.520 -> 01:30.400] the gym, Damien. Oh, absolutely, every morning,
[01:28.040 -> 01:31.840] Jake. But you've worked in some elite
[01:30.400 -> 01:34.200] sporting environments, you know it's not
[01:31.840 -> 01:35.320] all about hard work, that isn't the only
[01:34.200 -> 01:38.320] thing that gets the best out of people.
[01:35.320 -> 01:39.800] No, the culture is driven by the
[01:38.320 -> 01:41.680] environment that we're in. There's an
[01:39.800 -> 01:43.680] old saying that 70% of what we think
[01:41.680 -> 01:45.920] about is contained within our immediate
[01:43.680 -> 01:51.040] environment. So creating places where people can just stop, reflect, meet, have the chance to recharge,
[01:51.040 -> 01:55.920] refresh, is essential for any high-performing team, and Fora are brilliant at providing
[01:55.920 -> 01:56.920] those spaces.
[01:56.920 -> 02:01.200] We're really excited to work with you, Fora, and if you want to find out more, check out
[02:01.200 -> 02:04.080] foraspace.com or search Fora.
[02:04.080 -> 02:07.380] F-O-R-A. Right, let's do it. Let's get on
[02:07.380 -> 02:10.320] with our very special episode of High Performance.
[02:10.320 -> 02:15.960] Hi there, you're listening to High Performance, the award-winning podcast that unlocks the
[02:15.960 -> 02:20.960] minds of some of the most fascinating people on the planet. I'm Jay Comfrey, and alongside
[02:20.960 -> 02:22.880] Professor Damian Hughes. Hello.
[02:22.880 -> 02:23.880] Hi, Jay.
[02:23.880 -> 02:26.000] We learn from the stories, successes, and struggles of our guests, allowing us all to and alongside Professor Damien Hughes. Hello. Hi Jake. We
[02:24.320 -> 02:27.680] learn from the stories, successes and
[02:26.000 -> 02:30.320] struggles of our guests, allowing us all
[02:27.680 -> 02:32.680] to explore, be challenged and to grow.
[02:30.320 -> 02:34.280] And the reason why this is a rare moment
[02:32.680 -> 02:35.720] where I'm introducing the podcast with
[02:34.280 -> 02:38.160] Damien is because this is a rare
[02:35.720 -> 02:40.600] podcast. Yeah, this was a real brilliant
[02:38.160 -> 02:42.880] opportunity to get together two people
[02:40.600 -> 02:45.120] whose podcasts that predated ours. So
[02:42.880 -> 02:45.360] Elizabeth Day, Fern Cotter and Dr. Rangan
[02:45.360 -> 02:50.520] Chatterjee, they're all presenters of podcasts in a similar field to ours, but the chance
[02:50.520 -> 02:55.280] to get together, pick each other's brains and listen to each other's experiences was
[02:55.280 -> 02:58.140] an incredible opportunity that wasn't to be missed.
[02:58.140 -> 03:02.840] In so many ways, like being a podcaster is quite a lonely experience because you do the
[03:02.840 -> 03:05.000] episodes, you put them out and you hope people enjoy them.
[03:05.000 -> 03:08.000] But actually to all sit around and talk about the reasons
[03:08.000 -> 03:11.000] why we started podcasting, the things that we love about it,
[03:11.000 -> 03:13.000] finding purpose, finding passion was great.
[03:13.000 -> 03:16.000] And this is the time of year when we all come together
[03:16.000 -> 03:18.000] and there was a real energy in the room.
[03:18.000 -> 03:20.000] We had these envelopes we were opening, didn't we,
[03:20.000 -> 03:23.000] with questions in them. You'll hear that in a minute.
[03:23.000 -> 03:28.120] And I think not knowing what was coming was quite nice for all of us, because we were kind of out of our presenter comfort
[03:28.120 -> 03:29.120] zone.
[03:29.120 -> 03:33.120] Yeah, so often when we're meeting guests, we've done assiduous amounts of research into
[03:33.120 -> 03:36.960] them, so we've got an idea of where we want to explore and where we want to go to. So
[03:36.960 -> 03:40.800] sometimes flying by the seat of your pants and having just to give off-the-cuff responses
[03:40.800 -> 03:46.280] actually made it really exciting, and hopefully people listening to this episode will get a sense of that.
[03:46.280 -> 03:51.280] So let's do it then. I think this might be a first in the world of podcasting, a round
[03:51.280 -> 03:56.000] table involving the presenter of Feel Better Live More, Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, the host
[03:56.000 -> 04:02.720] of Happy Place, Fern Cotton, and the mega talented presenter of How to Fail, Elizabeth
[04:02.720 -> 04:05.280] Day, alongside myself and Professor Damian
[04:05.280 -> 04:09.160] Hughes on this special episode of the High Performance Podcast.
[04:09.160 -> 04:16.320] Well, we've got some envelopes on the table, and we're going to open them and we're going
[04:16.320 -> 04:17.720] to answer the questions in them.
[04:17.720 -> 04:18.720] All right.
[04:18.720 -> 04:19.720] How easy!
[04:19.720 -> 04:20.720] This podcasting lot is very easy, isn't it?
[04:20.720 -> 04:21.720] I know.
[04:21.720 -> 04:22.720] That's why we all do it.
[04:22.720 -> 04:23.720] Who would like to open?
[04:23.720 -> 04:24.720] Go on, you do the first one, Jakey.
[04:24.720 -> 04:25.240] In fact, I was hoping you'd say that. This podcasting lot is very easy, isn't it? I know. That's why we all do it. Who would like to open?
[04:25.240 -> 04:26.240] Go on, you do the first one, Jakey.
[04:26.240 -> 04:29.320] I was hoping you'd say that.
[04:29.320 -> 04:32.320] You kick it off.
[04:32.320 -> 04:36.560] The first question for us all is, why did we all start our podcasts?
[04:36.560 -> 04:38.040] And what does each one do?
[04:38.040 -> 04:40.000] What does our podcast do?
[04:40.000 -> 04:41.000] That's a really good question.
[04:41.000 -> 04:42.000] It is a good question.
[04:42.000 -> 04:45.000] So, we thought you should start, Elizabeth.
[04:45.000 -> 04:48.160] Okay, so, I couldn't agree more with Fern.
[04:48.160 -> 04:49.720] Thank you so much for making this happen.
[04:49.720 -> 04:56.360] It's just, I always feel when I'm with fellow podcasters that I'm in such a lovely community
[04:56.360 -> 04:58.200] that is really welcoming and supportive.
[04:58.200 -> 05:01.680] And as you say, it doesn't often exist in other industries.
[05:01.680 -> 05:10.120] And the reason I started my podcast, How To Fail, was because I felt like a failure in my own life. And what I mean by that is that professionally, I'd had
[05:10.120 -> 05:15.280] a certain degree of success as a writer. So I was a journalist for a Sunday newspaper,
[05:15.280 -> 05:20.240] and I'd written my first couple of novels, but it didn't translate to how I felt inside.
[05:20.240 -> 05:25.360] And it was because my personal life had derailed itself from the plan that I always
[05:25.360 -> 05:30.000] had growing up. So I got married to the wrong person, I got divorced, I tried and failed
[05:30.000 -> 05:35.080] to have babies, I went through unsuccessful fertility treatment. And just before my 39th
[05:35.080 -> 05:41.480] birthday, I got broken up with again, by someone who I thought I'd made different choices
[05:41.480 -> 05:45.640] post divorce with my new relationship and I thought it was going to work and it didn't.
[05:45.640 -> 05:50.360] And it was such a shock to me and it was the lowest I've ever felt because I felt that
[05:50.360 -> 05:56.440] I was staring down the barrel of my 40s thinking, God, life is not going according to plan and
[05:56.440 -> 05:59.900] I feel like I failed and I don't know how to get through this.
[05:59.900 -> 06:04.080] And I wanted to talk to other people about how they had got through failure in their
[06:04.080 -> 06:05.020] lives.
[06:05.020 -> 06:07.300] And that was honestly the starting point.
[06:07.300 -> 06:12.140] And I think alongside that, because I had been a Sunday newspaper journalist, I was
[06:12.140 -> 06:17.940] so used to doing conventional print interviews, where we are constantly sent to interview
[06:17.940 -> 06:19.900] celebrities, I think I even interviewed Fern Cotton.
[06:19.900 -> 06:20.900] I remember that.
[06:20.900 -> 06:28.200] I know, it was really special because we had a genuine connection. But it's really difficult
[06:28.200 -> 06:33.240] in that format ever to get really deep or vulnerable. Very often it's about the project
[06:33.240 -> 06:37.580] they're promoting, the film that they had a wonderful time filming. And anytime I try
[06:37.580 -> 06:42.280] to get a bit deeper, and sometimes the celebrity in question was amazing and would really connect,
[06:42.280 -> 06:45.640] I would write it up and my editor would say, we're not interested in that bit.
[06:45.640 -> 06:49.720] And I wanted to do an interview that flipped that on its head,
[06:49.720 -> 06:52.000] and that was the starting point for How to Fail.
[06:52.000 -> 06:55.640] I hope what it does is to make listeners feel less alone,
[06:55.640 -> 06:59.000] and I hope that it flips that idea of perfection on its head.
[06:59.000 -> 07:02.680] So, we all know, and we all do similar things in this regard, actually.
[07:02.680 -> 07:08.440] We live in a culture where we're all under such enormous pressure to be quote-unquote perfect, whether it's
[07:08.440 -> 07:12.500] the pressures of social media, whether you're just comparing yourself to your friend group.
[07:12.500 -> 07:17.960] And I wanted to reach out and say actually, failure and vulnerability is what makes us
[07:17.960 -> 07:18.960] human.
[07:18.960 -> 07:19.960] Boom.
[07:19.960 -> 07:20.960] What a start.
[07:20.960 -> 07:21.960] What a start.
[07:21.960 -> 07:22.960] Lovely.
[07:22.960 -> 07:23.960] What a deal.
[07:23.960 -> 07:24.960] No one's going to live up to that.
[07:24.960 -> 07:31.280] Imposter syndrome is kicking in. I want to follow that at the moment! I had that already though, I was sitting here at the start thinking, what are we doing?
[07:31.280 -> 07:35.880] I've been, I guess, in the public eye for a few years, trying to help people improve
[07:35.880 -> 07:36.880] their health.
[07:36.880 -> 07:46.440] And, you know, I've long had this belief that 80 to 90% or so of what we see as doctors is actually related to the
[07:46.440 -> 07:47.440] way we're living our lives.
[07:47.440 -> 07:53.600] Again, I say that with no blame at all, but that really is what I had seen over, I think,
[07:53.600 -> 07:56.600] 15 years of practice at that time.
[07:56.600 -> 08:01.240] And so for me, I saw with television what you can do in terms of improving people's
[08:01.240 -> 08:05.480] health if you can communicate in a non-judgmental way,
[08:05.480 -> 08:12.500] in a compassionate way, not talking down to people, then people actually will make change.
[08:12.500 -> 08:19.480] And I think I felt that podcasting seemed to be something that I was drawn to.
[08:19.480 -> 08:21.720] I thought, well, I kind of like these conversations.
[08:21.720 -> 08:30.100] I felt when I did television, there was quite a lot of constraints over what you can say and what you can't say, which I don't think I realized
[08:30.100 -> 08:35.100] at the time how limiting that was. I think it's only having had a podcast now for over
[08:35.100 -> 08:40.060] five years where I really enjoyed the freedom. But in essence, the whole point of the show
[08:40.060 -> 08:47.120] when I started it was to help people understand the simple things that they could
[08:47.120 -> 08:52.160] do each day that would literally make a difference immediately to how they felt, physical health
[08:52.160 -> 08:53.800] and mental health.
[08:53.800 -> 08:56.640] But I would say it's evolved a lot over the years.
[08:56.640 -> 08:59.280] But certainly that's why I started it.
[08:59.280 -> 09:01.480] I think it does a variety of different things.
[09:01.480 -> 09:09.720] I think it helps people feel less alone, particularly during all those lockdowns, you know, between 2020 and 2023. I'm sure we've all probably
[09:09.720 -> 09:15.400] felt had feedback from listeners how comforting it was at that time to have podcast hosts
[09:15.400 -> 09:19.560] to people trusted and had a relationship with. So I think, I think it helps people feel less
[09:19.560 -> 09:27.560] alone. And I honestly believe that my podcast helps people to think differently about their lives
[09:27.560 -> 09:29.400] and their place in their lives.
[09:29.400 -> 09:31.680] I feel like I'm listening to feel better live more.
[09:31.680 -> 09:32.680] Yeah, it's very calming.
[09:32.680 -> 09:36.400] I want you to start talking about blue light blocking glasses or something.
[09:36.400 -> 09:39.560] It's a great podcast.
[09:39.560 -> 09:40.560] It's a great podcast.
[09:40.560 -> 09:41.560] It's a great one.
[09:41.560 -> 09:42.560] Yeah, it is.
[09:42.560 -> 09:43.560] We all love each other very much.
[09:43.560 -> 09:44.560] We do, yeah.
[09:44.560 -> 09:49.120] It's a great one. Yeah, it is. We all love each other very much. We do, yeah. It's a good thing. I started Happy Place for quite selfish reasons, really. And that was
[09:49.120 -> 09:56.440] because I was very, I was about to say quite disillusioned with the career that I was in.
[09:56.440 -> 10:02.720] And was leaving lots of jobs that I was more traditionally known for because I was unhappy,
[10:02.720 -> 10:09.840] not just for work reasons, I had all sorts of stuff going on in my personal life that felt deeply confusing. And I had been through a period
[10:09.840 -> 10:13.660] of depression, so I knew I needed to change something, I didn't know what, so I was just
[10:13.660 -> 10:18.940] getting rid of stuff left, right and center. And podcasting felt like a good natural place
[10:18.940 -> 10:24.100] to arrive at, because I love interviewing people. I'm sort of deeply fascinated by people's
[10:24.100 -> 10:25.540] stories. And I was
[10:25.540 -> 10:29.520] really ready to do an interview that wasn't eight minutes long with four songs in the
[10:29.520 -> 10:35.040] middle where I could only ask about their album. I wanted to know about the people.
[10:35.040 -> 10:40.800] So it felt almost sort of reckless to go, well, I can just talk for an hour without
[10:40.800 -> 10:47.380] any restraint. I found it absurd. So selfishly, I felt really challenged and
[10:47.380 -> 10:54.480] I felt really excited and I needed both of those things certainly. And I was wanting
[10:54.480 -> 11:01.920] to explore the subject of mental health and life really, quite sort of nebulous, broad
[11:01.920 -> 11:06.000] area of just looking at life because I was sort of deeply confused about my own
[11:06.000 -> 11:13.280] life at that time. So I think it served me personally greatly. And then I realized, oh,
[11:13.280 -> 11:17.560] this is quite helpful for other people. I didn't start going, I want to talk about mental
[11:17.560 -> 11:23.280] health so everyone feels better. No, I was doing it for me 100%. And it's turned out
[11:23.280 -> 11:28.000] to be a helpful tool, to other people totally by accident
[11:28.000 -> 11:33.840] and I'm so grateful for that and that is now my motivation is because I can see that it's
[11:33.840 -> 11:40.800] doing something good. So that's why I started it and what does it do? Hopefully it de-stigmatizes
[11:40.800 -> 11:45.040] mental health. Hopefully it makes people feel less alone, like you've both just
[11:45.040 -> 11:51.840] shared. Hopefully it really celebrates storytelling, which I think we lost for a moment, the art
[11:51.840 -> 11:58.760] of beautiful storytelling without the need of any other distraction. And it gives us
[11:58.760 -> 12:05.840] a chance to get really introspective and curious about ourselves. Those are my hopes anyway.
[12:05.840 -> 12:06.840] Love that.
[12:06.840 -> 12:07.840] Who goes first?
[12:07.840 -> 12:08.840] I'm foremost.
[12:08.840 -> 12:09.840] You explain it, you're better.
[12:09.840 -> 12:10.840] Do an arm wrestle.
[12:10.840 -> 12:17.440] He'd win. You know what, and I don't want this to be the wrong thing to say in a room
[12:17.440 -> 12:29.160] of podcasters, but I was actually like pretty anti doing a podcast. Because I honestly thought that like TV was the sort of big brother
[12:29.160 -> 12:33.520] or the grandfather to this little podcasting thing. And I just thought, and again, I probably
[12:33.520 -> 12:38.200] sound like a dick, I thought, I've moved beyond doing a podcast, like when I was working in
[12:38.200 -> 12:44.240] TV and I always wanted to have these conversations about mindset, resilience, failure, struggle,
[12:44.240 -> 12:45.900] but also hard work and non-negotiable
[12:45.900 -> 12:50.060] behaviors and taking control of your destiny and all this sort of stuff.
[12:50.060 -> 12:53.900] But I had this grand idea that I would come up with an amazing TV format and it would
[12:53.900 -> 12:58.900] be on like BBC One on Friday night at seven o'clock. And I was chatting to someone and
[12:58.900 -> 13:04.060] they said, well, why don't you just do a podcast? And my initial reaction was, don't be so silly.
[13:04.060 -> 13:05.160] This is a much bigger thing than a podcast. What my initial reaction was, don't be so silly, this is a much bigger thing than
[13:05.160 -> 13:06.860] a podcast, what are you talking about?
[13:06.860 -> 13:08.520] We were so TV brainwashed, weren't we?
[13:08.520 -> 13:09.520] So TV brainwashed.
[13:09.520 -> 13:10.520] We were so TV brainwashed.
[13:10.520 -> 13:14.400] But the reason why I sort of think it's important to start by saying that is because I now sit
[13:14.400 -> 13:20.800] here three years after we started, and I've done ten years as a football host, four years
[13:20.800 -> 13:29.120] doing Formula One before that, eight years on kids' telly before that, not a single person stops me in the street and talks about any of that. Every single
[13:29.120 -> 13:33.840] person I meet goes, love your podcast, your podcast changed my life, your podcast done
[13:33.840 -> 13:38.000] this and that. So that is really like testament, I think, to the power of podcasting, which
[13:38.000 -> 13:41.720] I think is interesting. I actually had two podcasts, you know, that I was that I was
[13:41.720 -> 13:47.120] toying with. And one of them was called One Last Thing Before I Go, and it was conversations with terminally ill people right at the end of
[13:47.120 -> 13:51.540] their lives. And I recorded three episodes and couldn't do any more. It was just too
[13:51.540 -> 13:56.880] painful, like too much of a sort of, it wasn't even an emotional rollercoaster, it was just
[13:56.880 -> 14:02.380] very much one way, like really hard. And then thought about high performance. And then the
[14:02.380 -> 14:05.760] old imposter syndrome kicked in and I was like,
[14:05.760 -> 14:07.960] no one wants to hear a guy from children's BBC
[14:07.960 -> 14:09.800] talking about high performance.
[14:09.800 -> 14:11.200] And luckily I met Damien.
[14:11.200 -> 14:12.160] It's been fun, man.
[14:12.160 -> 14:14.120] That's all I could, I just feel like I found my purpose.
[14:14.120 -> 14:15.960] And I think all of us probably feel
[14:15.960 -> 14:17.920] there's an element of finding our purpose here.
[14:17.920 -> 14:19.680] And I think that makes a real difference.
[14:19.680 -> 14:21.320] It's always nerve wracking as well.
[14:21.320 -> 14:22.920] Like I've never been complacent,
[14:22.920 -> 14:28.920] like, oh, I've got to do another episode. I'm like shitting myself in the best possible way every time.
[14:28.920 -> 14:29.920] Oh, you do.
[14:29.920 -> 14:33.520] Yeah, because I don't want to cock it up. It means too much, and I don't want the guest
[14:33.520 -> 14:38.800] to think I'm a knob by the end of it. I want it to go really, really well. Whereas I don't
[14:38.800 -> 14:43.320] think I ever cared. I cared, but not this much. No way. No way.
[14:43.320 -> 14:45.680] It's bad though when it goes badly, isn't it, and you're doing an interview thinking,
[14:45.680 -> 14:46.680] oh no.
[14:46.680 -> 14:47.680] Oh, life repeats.
[14:47.680 -> 14:49.760] How many have you done where you haven't seen the light of day?
[14:49.760 -> 14:50.760] One.
[14:50.760 -> 14:51.760] Ooh!
[14:51.760 -> 14:52.760] Okay, next later.
[14:52.760 -> 14:53.760] Not the same person!
[14:53.760 -> 14:54.760] Imagine!
[14:54.760 -> 14:58.400] Don't you feel like there is a sense of responsibility?
[14:58.400 -> 14:59.400] Definitely.
[14:59.400 -> 15:00.400] Yes!
[15:00.400 -> 15:03.840] And I feel like, the same as you, in TV I never felt that. I was like, if the show's
[15:03.840 -> 15:08.320] crap, it's not my responsibility. Whilst I think all of us feel if it is crap, it probably is our responsibility.
[15:08.320 -> 15:12.480] Yeah, I think you've got a connection with your audience as well. Like, I think with podcasting,
[15:12.480 -> 15:16.880] you have such a deep connection with your audience. You kind of don't want to take the
[15:16.880 -> 15:22.400] mickey out of that. I think a lot about podcasting and why has it exploded so much? And I think
[15:28.520 -> 15:34.520] Why has it exploded so much? And I think one of the things about it is that you just develop this trust with the hosts that you're listening to. And I kind of think so hard about, you
[15:34.520 -> 15:39.040] know, is it good enough to go out for this audience? You know, do we need to make a better
[15:39.040 -> 15:40.880] edit or whatever it might be?
[15:40.880 -> 15:44.880] And I also feel I know that we're sitting here being filmed in this beautiful studio,
[15:44.880 -> 15:47.920] but when podcasting started, it was audio only.
[15:47.920 -> 15:49.120] And there's an intimacy to that.
[15:49.120 -> 15:54.600] And there's also for me, I felt really liberated to show up as myself, almost for the first
[15:54.600 -> 15:56.620] time professionally speaking.
[15:56.620 -> 16:00.480] And sometimes, and I'm sure you'll get this, people will come up to me and say, I feel
[16:00.480 -> 16:02.000] like I know you.
[16:02.000 -> 16:05.680] And I say to them, if you've listened to my podcast, or you've
[16:05.680 -> 16:09.440] done me the honor of reading one of my books that's come out of the podcast, you do actually
[16:09.440 -> 16:14.860] know me because I feel that I am myself. And you're absolutely right what you were saying
[16:14.860 -> 16:20.200] about connection. Hopefully, I can also show the guest as they really are. And we can have
[16:20.200 -> 16:24.760] that moment of connection. And that's such a special, unique thing, being able to show
[16:24.760 -> 16:25.320] up as yourself.
[16:25.320 -> 16:27.120] Did you find that, Damian, when you...
[16:27.120 -> 16:30.120] We find it, and I often feel quite humbled
[16:30.120 -> 16:32.560] when people tell us they invite us on a dog walk
[16:32.560 -> 16:34.480] or a commute or in the gym,
[16:34.480 -> 16:37.320] because I think given how busy our lives are,
[16:37.320 -> 16:39.800] the fact that somebody would choose to invite you
[16:39.800 -> 16:43.800] into their world at their own time just really humbles us.
[16:43.800 -> 16:45.040] So when people come
[16:45.040 -> 16:48.200] and tell us that they feel that they know you or connect with you that's
[16:48.200 -> 16:52.320] where it often just feels a privilege that that they've invited us in.
[16:52.320 -> 16:56.480] Don't be too modest to tell us why you started it why did you say yes to doing it?
[16:56.480 -> 17:00.920] So I grew up in a boxing gym and what I often say about that is that a lot of
[17:00.920 -> 17:09.680] the work that so people get blinded by the bright lights of that like a night or a fight night, whereas actually it's the stuff that precedes it, the months
[17:09.680 -> 17:15.080] and years beforehand where high performance really happens. So a lot of my work has been
[17:15.080 -> 17:20.720] spent in the shadows working in sport, but the stuff that nobody sees. So when me and
[17:20.720 -> 17:24.840] Jay were talking about it, I just thought this was a great way of sort of demystifying
[17:24.840 -> 17:26.240] what high performance is.
[17:26.240 -> 17:29.000] It's not about being number one or winning championships.
[17:29.000 -> 17:31.040] It's often about showing up when you don't want to.
[17:31.040 -> 17:33.620] It's about doing your best, whatever that is.
[17:33.620 -> 17:36.600] It's about failing and learning from the process of it.
[17:36.600 -> 17:40.840] And we just felt if we could shine a light on the truth of what high performance is rather
[17:40.840 -> 17:47.000] than the mythology or the sort of the unhealthy perceptions of it.
[17:47.000 -> 17:53.960] Right, envelope number two. Tell us a story about a conversation that has made you think
[17:53.960 -> 17:57.120] differently. Do you guys want to go first?
[17:57.120 -> 17:58.120] Go on, Demma.
[17:58.120 -> 18:04.120] Well, we'll do one with Tyson Fury to have the ultimate boxer, the heavyweight champion
[18:04.120 -> 18:09.000] of the world, sit down with us. It's a privilege, but then secondly, to have the ultimate boxer, the heavyweight champion of the world, sit down with us is a privilege but then secondly to have a conversation not
[18:09.000 -> 18:13.320] about boxing but about mental health and some of the stories that he shared with
[18:13.320 -> 18:18.920] us just felt quite earth-shattering within that world to hear him talk about
[18:18.920 -> 18:23.840] what was essentially a psychotic episode and his desire to reach out for help
[18:23.840 -> 18:28.560] just felt a real privilege and when we're driving up there we went to meet
[18:28.560 -> 18:31.600] him in Morecambe and I was saying to Jake on the way up I
[18:31.600 -> 18:35.280] said we'll get one or two results from this interview today if he turns up with
[18:35.280 -> 18:38.800] a mob of his friends I think it'll be rubbish I think it'll be
[18:38.800 -> 18:42.400] all boastful and it'll be all the hype that
[18:42.400 -> 18:45.200] you normally associate with the sport.
[18:45.200 -> 18:49.440] If he turns up on his own I think we've got the chance of getting something incredible.
[18:49.440 -> 18:54.920] And then we didn't know what Tyson was going to turn up and then he showed up in a dirty
[18:54.920 -> 18:57.880] sweaty t-shirt fresh from a run on his own.
[18:57.880 -> 18:58.880] Bingo.
[18:58.880 -> 19:02.320] And that's when we knew didn't we, we thought we'll get something really valuable from this
[19:02.320 -> 19:09.440] and we spent nearly three hours with him where he was riffing, he was going off down places that I don't think I've heard
[19:09.440 -> 19:11.120] him speak about before.
[19:11.120 -> 19:13.120] Is yours the same one, Jake?
[19:13.120 -> 19:17.400] No, I think, well I think the podcast that changed the game for us was probably Johnny
[19:17.400 -> 19:21.760] Wilkinson, the former rugby player, when he said, he basically came on and said, doing
[19:21.760 -> 19:28.000] the washing up is the same as winning the Rugby World Cup. And that was my reaction, I was like, what? What are you talking about? And basically
[19:28.000 -> 19:31.240] what he's saying in that is, society decides that winning the Rugby World Cup is a great
[19:31.240 -> 19:35.240] achievement, but society tells us doing the washing up is pretty straightforward and simple.
[19:35.240 -> 19:40.560] What are they? Using your body to achieve a goal. So that idea of reframing what success
[19:40.560 -> 19:44.720] is or what high performance is, is brilliant. Because I'll be totally honest with you all,
[19:44.720 -> 19:46.200] right, when we started high performance,
[19:46.200 -> 19:47.200] I wanted people to come on it and go,
[19:47.200 -> 19:50.680] oh, I've had to work so hard, 24-7, get kicked down,
[19:50.680 -> 19:52.880] get up again, keep going.
[19:52.880 -> 19:54.600] And then when you start having conversations
[19:54.600 -> 19:56.680] with people who've done amazing things,
[19:56.680 -> 20:00.160] you realize that just was the really horrible,
[20:00.160 -> 20:03.040] nasty, toxic side effects of doing things
[20:03.040 -> 20:03.880] that they've done.
[20:03.880 -> 20:09.120] You know, we've had people come on the podcast who spent 20 years trying to achieve something great to be joyful for 15
[20:09.120 -> 20:14.220] seconds. So the podcast then became about that. And Johnny was the person that sort
[20:14.220 -> 20:18.320] of shared it brilliantly with us. And the only other one would be Matthew McConaughey,
[20:18.320 -> 20:21.160] who was the same. He said, there is no yet. And that's...
[20:21.160 -> 20:22.160] What a phrase.
[20:22.160 -> 20:23.160] What a phrase.
[20:23.160 -> 20:24.160] I want that tattooed somewhere.
[20:24.160 -> 20:25.000] What did he say? Life's a verb. Life's a verb. phrase. What a phrase. I want that tattooed somewhere. What did he say?
[20:25.000 -> 20:26.000] Life's a verb.
[20:26.000 -> 20:27.000] Yeah.
[20:27.000 -> 20:28.000] Life's a doing word.
[20:28.000 -> 20:29.000] Life's a verb.
[20:29.000 -> 20:30.000] Oh, I love it.
[20:30.000 -> 20:31.000] It's a doing word.
[20:31.000 -> 20:32.000] And that was like, yes, life's a verb.
[20:32.000 -> 20:34.000] So, both of those were game changers for me.
[20:34.000 -> 20:35.000] Well, when he turned up, didn't he?
[20:35.000 -> 20:39.280] He was the first A-list guest that we've ever sat down with and we were expecting.
[20:39.280 -> 20:40.280] First and only, actually.
[20:40.280 -> 20:41.280] Yeah.
[20:41.280 -> 20:42.280] We picked early, guys.
[20:42.280 -> 20:43.280] We picked early.
[20:43.280 -> 20:46.880] One Hollywood actor and it was about five
[20:46.880 -> 20:47.880] episodes in.
[20:47.880 -> 20:52.040] But we anticipated, didn't we, that it would be like PRs and all different types of people
[20:52.040 -> 20:56.320] vetting the questions. And he came in on Zoom on his own, didn't he? And I think that told
[20:56.320 -> 21:01.280] us something, that he was just a really genuine bloke that wanted to share what he'd learnt
[21:01.280 -> 21:02.280] on his journey.
[21:02.280 -> 21:03.280] That's so cool.
[21:03.280 -> 21:07.720] It's quite hard to choose, isn't it? Sometimes when you ask these questions, it's like picking
[21:07.720 -> 21:09.720] a favourite child sort of thing.
[21:09.720 -> 21:12.400] How many episodes have you done?
[21:12.400 -> 21:16.760] I think we're on about 390 now, something like that.
[21:16.760 -> 21:18.480] You forget so many of them as well, don't you?
[21:18.480 -> 21:19.480] Yeah!
[21:19.480 -> 21:26.080] You forget, but I think one does still rise to the top for me in the sense of it changed me.
[21:26.080 -> 21:33.720] I can still remember going into the conversation, having it, and then literally afterwards feeling
[21:33.720 -> 21:35.440] I'm not the same person anymore.
[21:35.440 -> 21:38.160] And that doesn't happen that often.
[21:38.160 -> 21:46.480] But it happened with a lady called Edith Eager, who I had the greatest privilege, one of the great privileges of my life is
[21:46.480 -> 21:52.960] to spend two hours chatting to her. And when I spoke to her, she was 93 years old. And
[21:52.960 -> 21:58.600] when she was 16 years old, she got taken to Auschwitz concentration camp with her older
[21:58.600 -> 22:04.400] sister and her parents. And just to put a bit of context, I remember her saying that
[22:04.400 -> 22:06.360] she was at the time just thinking
[22:06.360 -> 22:09.400] about the date she had with her boyfriend that night and what dress she was going to
[22:09.400 -> 22:11.280] wear and then suddenly there's a knock on the door.
[22:11.280 -> 22:12.760] They end up at Auschwitz concentration camp.
[22:12.760 -> 22:17.060] She didn't know what Auschwitz was until she got there.
[22:17.060 -> 22:21.080] Within a couple of hours, both her parents were murdered.
[22:21.080 -> 22:29.740] And what was just so incredible was the spirit of forgiveness and compassion she had throughout
[22:29.740 -> 22:31.660] the entire conversation.
[22:31.660 -> 22:36.380] And a couple of things I think about most days still, even though it was probably over
[22:36.380 -> 22:38.180] two years ago when I had that conversation.
[22:38.180 -> 22:41.740] One was how she could reframe anything.
[22:41.740 -> 22:50.560] So she said to me, Rongen, listen, I never forgot the last thing that my mother said to me before she was killed, which was, Edie, nobody can take from you
[22:50.560 -> 22:56.200] the contents that you put inside your own mind. So she would illustrate that to me in
[22:56.200 -> 23:01.160] a variety of ways. One was when literally the same day her parents were murdered, later
[23:01.160 -> 23:06.600] that day, she was asked to dance for the senior officers.
[23:06.600 -> 23:11.720] And she told me, you know, when I was dancing, I wasn't dancing in Auschwitz. In my mind,
[23:11.720 -> 23:18.200] I was in Budapest Opera House. I had a beautiful dress on, there was a orchestra playing. It
[23:18.200 -> 23:22.960] was just absolutely gorgeous. I thought, wow, that's pretty incredible reframing.
[23:22.960 -> 23:25.280] At that age as well.
[23:25.280 -> 23:27.880] At that age, given what was going on around her.
[23:27.880 -> 23:35.440] Then she told me that during her stay in Auschwitz, she reframed things whereby she saw the prison
[23:35.440 -> 23:37.420] guards as the prisoners.
[23:37.420 -> 23:39.400] She said to me that they're not free.
[23:39.400 -> 23:40.400] They're not living their life.
[23:40.400 -> 23:42.440] In my mind, I'm free.
[23:42.440 -> 23:46.060] And the last thing she said to me was, I've lived in Auschwitz
[23:46.060 -> 23:51.940] and I can tell you Rangan that the greatest prison we will ever live inside is the prison
[23:51.940 -> 23:57.460] we create inside our own minds. And that's the phrase I want tattooed on me.
[23:57.460 -> 23:58.460] Yeah.
[23:58.460 -> 24:08.160] It is the inner turmoil that we create by disempowering narratives every single day. And once you understand,
[24:08.160 -> 24:14.100] and she helped me to realize this, that you can choose the narrative and the spin you
[24:14.100 -> 24:20.120] put on any situation. Once you truly understand that every situation in life is basically
[24:20.120 -> 24:27.280] neutral and it's the perspective you put on it that determines its impacts on you,
[24:27.280 -> 24:29.660] I think you never look back.
[24:29.660 -> 24:35.400] And for me, that conversation helped me realize that actually, Rangan, you can reframe anything,
[24:35.400 -> 24:36.400] right?
[24:36.400 -> 24:41.040] And if I'm ever struggling, I think of that conversation, I go, Rangan, listen, if Edith
[24:41.040 -> 24:51.840] can reframe things in Auschwitz, you can probably reframe this in your life. So I take it as inspiration. And, you know, I don't think it's even close.
[24:51.840 -> 24:56.680] So many conversations have changed my life, but that one for me, has almost had an imprint
[24:56.680 -> 24:59.960] left on my soul and how I interact with the world.
[24:59.960 -> 25:00.960] Oh, mate.
[25:00.960 -> 25:05.000] Oh, that moved me to tears just hearing you speak about it. So I can't even imagine.
[25:05.000 -> 25:06.000] Good luck following that, Elizabeth.
[25:06.000 -> 25:07.000] Oh, no, come on. Over to you.
[25:07.000 -> 25:12.720] Okay, well, now it just sounds like I'm so derivative because the one that I'm going
[25:12.720 -> 25:17.240] to choose genuinely changed my life as well. And again, we've all been so fortunate to
[25:17.240 -> 25:26.120] interview so many incredible guests. But the one that always sticks with me came about in season four of How to Fail in 2019.
[25:26.120 -> 25:31.340] And I believe it was his first ever UK podcast interview.
[25:31.340 -> 25:36.980] And he had a book out called Soul for Happy and the man in question is Mo Gowdat.
[25:36.980 -> 25:39.820] And I was pitched him by the publisher.
[25:39.820 -> 25:42.580] The publisher was like, he used to be chief business officer.
[25:42.580 -> 25:44.340] He used to be chief business officer of Google X.
[25:44.340 -> 25:49.840] I thought, oh, that's good because I haven't really had any business people. And I'd really underestimated what
[25:49.840 -> 25:55.000] a profound thinker and what a deep impact he was going to have on my life. So he wrote
[25:55.000 -> 26:00.400] this book, Solve for Happy, which is all about how we all have the capacity to be happy according
[26:00.400 -> 26:08.660] to how we frame our mindsets. It's very similar to what Edith was saying. And he is just such a wonderful, wise person.
[26:08.660 -> 26:10.640] And he taught me so much.
[26:10.640 -> 26:13.080] And one of the key things that he taught me
[26:13.080 -> 26:15.480] was that we are not our worst thoughts.
[26:15.480 -> 26:19.000] And he describes the brain in a very accessible way.
[26:19.000 -> 26:20.920] And he says the brain often gets caught
[26:20.920 -> 26:22.280] on this anxious narrative loop
[26:22.280 -> 26:24.360] where it's constantly pointing out the things
[26:24.360 -> 26:25.000] that might go wrong
[26:25.000 -> 26:26.840] because it's trying to protect you.
[26:26.840 -> 26:29.040] But ultimately, we're in charge of our brains,
[26:29.040 -> 26:30.440] it's not the other way around.
[26:30.440 -> 26:32.680] And unless you suffer from a neurological condition,
[26:32.680 -> 26:35.840] you can generally train your brain to do the things that you want it to do.
[26:35.840 -> 26:40.320] So if you say, brain, raise my right arm, your brain will do that.
[26:40.320 -> 26:43.080] So he introduced the concept of the Becky brain.
[26:43.080 -> 26:48.200] Now, he calls his anxious brain Becky because there's this girl at his school that used
[26:48.200 -> 26:51.400] to point out constantly the things that would go wrong and she was very negative and her
[26:51.400 -> 26:52.400] name was Becky.
[26:52.400 -> 26:56.680] And I always have to apologize when I tell this story in case anyone is listening and
[26:56.680 -> 26:58.120] is called Becky.
[26:58.120 -> 27:02.600] But when his Becky brain starts telling him things about himself like, you're a failure,
[27:02.600 -> 27:06.080] you're a terrible parent, you're an imposter, you shouldn't be doing this.
[27:06.080 -> 27:09.640] He stops himself and has a conversation with that part of his brain.
[27:09.640 -> 27:13.840] And he says, Becky, thank you for your feedback, noted.
[27:13.840 -> 27:17.760] I would really like it if you could take that opinion,
[27:17.760 -> 27:19.080] if you've got no evidence for it,
[27:19.080 -> 27:21.320] I'd like you to take away that negative opinion
[27:21.320 -> 27:23.400] and replace it with something more positive.
[27:23.400 -> 27:26.360] And in that way, he says, you can train your brain to be happier.
[27:26.360 -> 27:31.500] Now, I do that almost every day and he is absolutely right.
[27:31.500 -> 27:35.400] And when I tell you about Mogadhat, the other very important thing that you should know
[27:35.400 -> 27:40.880] is that this mindset that he developed was not developed in a vacuum.
[27:40.880 -> 27:47.040] So shortly after he started researching happiness, his son Ali died, age 21, during
[27:47.040 -> 27:53.000] a routine operation. And in the immediate weeks and months after that desperate tragedy,
[27:53.000 -> 27:59.120] Mo would wake up every morning and tears would be streaming down his cheeks. And his first
[27:59.120 -> 28:07.220] thought on waking was Ali died, Ali died. And he realized after a few months of this that he himself, Mo, couldn't carry on living
[28:07.220 -> 28:09.660] if that continued.
[28:09.660 -> 28:14.280] And so he sort of challenged himself to apply his own learnings.
[28:14.280 -> 28:18.420] And in the mornings when he woke up, tears would still be streaming down his cheeks and
[28:18.420 -> 28:20.500] his first thought would still be Ali died.
[28:20.500 -> 28:26.960] But he added a very crucial set of words, yes, but he also lived. And within the, but
[28:26.960 -> 28:32.800] he also lived was 21 years of shared memories of love, of happiness, of a son who was more
[28:32.800 -> 28:37.340] like a best friend, and that's what enabled Mo to continue living. And that interview
[28:37.340 -> 28:41.920] changed my life in a practical sense, but also changed my life in an emotional sense,
[28:41.920 -> 28:49.800] because Mo and I are now really good friends, and really good friends and he's one of my few repeat guests on the podcast, and he's such a wonderful, warm person who's become
[28:49.800 -> 28:51.280] something of a guru for me.
[28:51.280 -> 28:57.520] So that one, and if I can have just one very quick one, I had Gloria Steinem on a few series
[28:57.520 -> 29:00.880] after that, and she's like a feminist icon of mine.
[29:00.880 -> 29:05.480] And she said that sometimes when we feel fear, actually what we're experiencing is
[29:05.480 -> 29:10.400] excitement and that again is just like such an amazing mindset shift for me. So those
[29:10.400 -> 29:13.280] two. Do you have a name for your brain? Is it
[29:13.280 -> 29:16.440] the Becky brain as well? Yes, it's not Becky. But I do want to say
[29:16.440 -> 29:22.080] in case she, well, in case she's listening. In case she's listening guys.
[29:22.080 -> 29:27.440] It's someone from my primary school. I basically took, but I'll tell you after. I mean, I've
[29:27.440 -> 29:30.800] not spoken to her since I was like eight. It's probably fine, isn't it?
[29:30.800 -> 29:31.800] Yeah.
[29:31.800 -> 29:32.800] Jennifer.
[29:32.800 -> 29:33.800] Jennifer.
[29:33.800 -> 29:34.800] We've said it.
[29:34.800 -> 29:35.800] We've said it now.
[29:35.800 -> 29:36.800] Perfectly nice.
[29:36.800 -> 29:37.800] Watch your DMs, Elizabeth.
[29:37.800 -> 29:45.440] So you were really lovely Jennifer. It was a random name, picked at random. Please don't
[29:45.440 -> 29:46.440] get anything into it.
[29:46.440 -> 29:47.440] Great.
[29:47.440 -> 29:52.480] All this is about reframing, isn't it? And what I think is really powerful about that
[29:52.480 -> 29:56.280] is that it, well, it empowers people. It reminds them that we're not, you know, we're not having
[29:56.280 -> 29:58.800] conversations where we're saying, now you need to go and do this. We're saying it's
[29:58.800 -> 29:59.800] already all there.
[29:59.800 -> 30:00.800] Yes.
[30:00.800 -> 30:10.840] Like this idea of flipping a thought, flipping imposter syndrome, flipping doubt, flipping how you respond to something. It's all like, it already is there. It's just like, the moment
[30:10.840 -> 30:15.480] you're opened up to that, you realize the power that your brain has and you realize
[30:15.480 -> 30:18.120] how much of your brain is being used to make you feel like crap.
[30:18.120 -> 30:22.760] But like Roland said, we have to be reminded of this stuff every day.
[30:22.760 -> 30:23.760] We know it.
[30:23.760 -> 30:25.760] Don't you forget all the lessons you learn. We all forget.
[30:25.760 -> 30:28.840] I have these amazing conversations, people say to me, I love this or that, and I'm thinking,
[30:28.840 -> 30:30.920] how have I allowed myself to forget that?
[30:30.920 -> 30:31.920] Forget that, I know.
[30:31.920 -> 30:32.920] It slips through your fingers.
[30:32.920 -> 30:33.920] I know.
[30:33.920 -> 30:39.480] But you know, this also, something I think isn't commonly thought about enough is this
[30:39.480 -> 30:45.920] idea that when you don't reframe these things, you kind of make yourself a victim to the world
[30:45.920 -> 30:48.640] and you make yourself a victim to external events.
[30:48.640 -> 30:50.600] And what that does,
[30:50.600 -> 30:53.720] and why is that relevant to me as a medical doctor?
[30:53.720 -> 30:57.560] Because that's what people compensate for
[30:57.560 -> 30:59.960] a lot of the time when they're eating too much sugar
[30:59.960 -> 31:03.500] or they're binge scrolling or doom scrolling online
[31:03.500 -> 31:05.860] or staying up late watching Netflix
[31:05.860 -> 31:08.340] and staying up too late, whatever it might be,
[31:08.340 -> 31:10.040] they try and change the behavior by going,
[31:10.040 -> 31:12.160] I want to stop that.
[31:12.160 -> 31:14.760] But what I've found for years is that patients
[31:14.760 -> 31:17.800] and general people, I think most of us don't realize
[31:17.800 -> 31:20.040] actually that a lot of the time we're using these behaviors
[31:20.040 -> 31:23.920] to compensate for the way we're approaching the world.
[31:23.920 -> 31:27.000] So this reframing stuff works for mental health,
[31:27.000 -> 31:29.680] it works for happiness, it works for high performance.
[31:29.680 -> 31:31.280] It also works, I think, if you want to reduce
[31:31.280 -> 31:33.520] your sugar intake, because your sugar intake
[31:33.520 -> 31:38.520] is probably in some way trying to manage emotional stress.
[31:38.600 -> 31:40.360] You could do a lot with that.
[31:40.360 -> 31:42.480] That's a great tip, takeaway.
[31:42.480 -> 31:43.320] Love that, Ronan.
[31:43.320 -> 31:44.560] It's not an actual takeaway though,
[31:44.560 -> 31:46.120] because it'd be compensating. No, that's too much salt. Takeaway. Love that, Ronan. It's not an actual takeaway though, because it'd be compensating.
[31:46.120 -> 31:52.560] No, too much salt. Too much salt. So I'm gonna go for, I mean, I could probably answer, like
[31:52.560 -> 31:55.360] all of you, on any given day, I'd say a different answer.
[31:55.360 -> 31:56.360] It's the hardest question, isn't it?
[31:56.360 -> 32:00.880] It's so hard, but I think the one that's jumping out for me today is one that was relatively
[32:00.880 -> 32:05.200] recent with Bronnie Ware, who I think you've been through as well, Ronan.
[32:05.200 -> 32:10.240] And Bronnie is so wonderful. She ended up sort of accidentally working in palliative
[32:10.240 -> 32:18.000] care and just is a naturally very warm and gracious human that you want to spend time
[32:18.000 -> 32:25.600] with. So when she was caring for these individuals, some were elderly, some weren't. She naturally just bonded with
[32:25.600 -> 32:31.480] them because she has natural empathy and she's a brilliant storyteller and she's really curious
[32:31.480 -> 32:37.240] about life. So she's written this brilliant book called The Five Regrets of the Dying,
[32:37.240 -> 32:42.400] which had a huge impact on me. Reading this book, I was just I couldn't put it down. I
[32:42.400 -> 32:49.320] think the one regret, I'm not sure which order is in the book, but the one that we spoke about, that I still think about all the time, and
[32:49.320 -> 32:53.000] I can't I'll probably truncate it. I don't remember the exact regret, but it's something
[32:53.000 -> 32:59.320] around live your life how you want to not through the lens of what other people are
[32:59.320 -> 33:06.160] going to judge you on or assume about you. So essentially living an authentic life. And I think the
[33:06.160 -> 33:12.120] word authentic gets thrown around so much these days really flippantly and without us
[33:12.120 -> 33:17.140] really knowing what it means anymore. We've said it so much, we're like, what is authentic?
[33:17.140 -> 33:21.640] How do I live authentically? And the way that Bronnie talked about it was just cutting through
[33:21.640 -> 33:25.680] the bullshit, really simple, going with your gut, doing what
[33:25.680 -> 33:32.560] makes you feel good, not worrying what every single opinion means. And she's already doing
[33:32.560 -> 33:37.840] that. And she's always lived like that. So there's this lovely tandem of her showcasing how you can
[33:37.840 -> 33:45.600] live authentically. But also, you know, these are incredibly powerful stories of people's final words and final regrets
[33:45.600 -> 33:51.140] in life. I think that whole episode just really got me thinking and is something that I go
[33:51.140 -> 33:52.140] back to regularly.
[33:52.140 -> 33:57.400] Amazing. Let me just ask you a question, right? Do any of these conversations cause you problems
[33:57.400 -> 33:58.400] in your personal life?
[33:58.400 -> 34:00.400] That's such a good question.
[34:00.400 -> 34:01.400] Because they do, don't they?
[34:01.400 -> 34:06.680] Yeah, I think they do. I think they do. Because say after Bronny, I could easily go, fuck
[34:06.680 -> 34:11.360] all this, I'm gonna go and live in Ibiza and run a juice bar. Like, I'm not living authentically.
[34:11.360 -> 34:12.360] Like, easily.
[34:12.360 -> 34:13.360] I get it.
[34:13.360 -> 34:17.920] I annoy my wife by going, well, you're responsible for how you react to that person giving you
[34:17.920 -> 34:18.920] a drink.
[34:18.920 -> 34:19.920] J, I love you so much.
[34:19.920 -> 34:20.920] I learned from one disaster to another. Don't worry about it.
[34:20.920 -> 34:25.000] I just love it.
[34:25.000 -> 34:26.000] Okay, who wants to take this one?
[34:26.000 -> 34:27.000] Fern.
[34:27.000 -> 34:28.000] Oh, right, yeah.
[34:28.000 -> 34:29.000] Do you want to go first?
[34:29.000 -> 34:30.000] Go for it, yeah.
[34:30.000 -> 34:31.000] Why does having deep conversations matter?
[34:31.000 -> 34:32.000] I think it matters greatly.
[34:32.000 -> 34:34.000] I think our generation are in a tricky position in terms of, I'm speaking extremely generally,
[34:34.000 -> 34:35.000] but I think most of our parents' generation weren't brought up with the space to be able
[34:35.000 -> 34:36.000] to have deep conversations.
[34:36.000 -> 34:37.000] I think it's a great thing.
[34:37.000 -> 34:38.000] I think it's a great thing.
[34:38.000 -> 34:39.000] I think it's a great thing.
[34:39.000 -> 34:40.000] I think it's a great thing.
[34:40.000 -> 34:41.000] I think it's a great thing.
[34:41.000 -> 34:42.000] I think it's a great thing.
[34:42.000 -> 34:43.000] I think it's a great thing.
[34:43.000 -> 34:44.000] I think it's a great thing.
[34:44.000 -> 34:46.400] I think it's a great thing. I think it's a great thing. I think it's a great thing. I I'm speaking extremely generally, but I think
[34:46.400 -> 34:52.000] most of our parents generation weren't brought up with the space to be able to have big chats.
[34:52.000 -> 34:55.760] It's by no means their fault, but their parents, and again, there's that generational ripple
[34:55.760 -> 35:01.680] effect. They weren't given the space to have a deep chat. If our parents were struggling
[35:01.680 -> 35:10.800] as kids, then they would be ignored or told to leave the room or whatever. So I think we are all not just us podcasters, but everybody
[35:10.800 -> 35:18.120] in this sort of new generation trying to unpick the past. We're still trying to recalibrate
[35:18.120 -> 35:22.280] and figure it out and get what's the happy medium here? Like, you know, what do I keep
[35:22.280 -> 35:30.160] for myself? Because I think that's also deeply important, keeping some stuff for you and not simply just offloading everything. But I think deep
[35:30.160 -> 35:37.560] chats matter greatly. They stop resentments, which I think is something that the generations
[35:37.560 -> 35:42.000] before us had to deal with greatly. And they probably stop a lot of physical tension because
[35:42.000 -> 35:48.880] when we're suppressing stuff, you know more more than anyone wrong and how that can turn into chronic stress and then manifest physically.
[35:48.880 -> 35:55.040] I think there are many, many reasons why we're all individually trying to promote big, deep,
[35:55.040 -> 35:59.320] honest chats that might help other people feel they can also speak out. I mean, personally,
[35:59.320 -> 36:03.840] I talk a lot about mental health because there is still a lot of stigma around mental health
[36:03.840 -> 36:08.980] and people still do feel silenced in their workplaces or within their family unit and
[36:08.980 -> 36:13.780] feel like they can't say, I'm really struggling and I don't know what to do. And obviously
[36:13.780 -> 36:18.920] for men, there's a whole other problem with that side of things. So I think big conversations
[36:18.920 -> 36:23.700] matter deeply for many, many reasons, probably because we're all feeling it from the past,
[36:23.700 -> 36:26.400] but also because there's still a whole bunch of stigma around.
[36:26.400 -> 36:32.920] Yeah, Damian? I think it matters just because I think everybody's got an
[36:32.920 -> 36:37.640] amazing story to tell that's often one of our philosophies on the podcast is
[36:37.640 -> 36:42.080] that everybody's got a story to tell or everyone knows something that you don't
[36:42.080 -> 36:46.360] know and I think when you create a safe space for people
[36:46.360 -> 36:48.080] to come and share that,
[36:48.080 -> 36:50.720] collectively the wisdom that we all gain from it
[36:50.720 -> 36:54.240] is just a privilege to listen to.
[36:54.240 -> 36:56.760] So I've often been brought up with the idea
[36:56.760 -> 37:00.280] of just ask a question of everybody that you meet,
[37:00.280 -> 37:01.760] because they'll know something you don't know.
[37:01.760 -> 37:03.640] And I think that's really what we're trying to do
[37:03.640 -> 37:04.480] on the podcast,
[37:04.480 -> 37:06.360] of everybody's lived a unique set of
[37:06.360 -> 37:12.040] circumstances but tell us the generic lessons you want to pass on. I often
[37:12.040 -> 37:15.840] find it amazing how much wisdom and how much vulnerability people are prepared
[37:15.840 -> 37:19.720] to give you if you just ask them and then create the space to do that without
[37:19.720 -> 37:25.200] without a plan of judgment or an opinion or a statement of facts on the back of it.
[37:25.200 -> 37:26.200] Yeah, beautiful.
[37:26.200 -> 37:32.200] I think there's a couple of things I think about. The first thing is I think we've lost
[37:32.200 -> 37:33.200] the art of nuance, right?
[37:33.200 -> 37:34.200] I was going to say that!
[37:34.200 -> 37:35.200] Oh no, so sorry.
[37:35.200 -> 37:36.200] But that's such a good point! You can both riff on this!
[37:36.200 -> 37:37.200] It's a big one.
[37:37.200 -> 37:38.200] I'll make the point, you explain it because you are far better than me.
[37:38.200 -> 37:39.200] Shut up, shut up, you make the point. I've got another one.
[37:39.200 -> 37:40.200] You can do it from a journalistic side, which is relevant.
[37:40.200 -> 37:41.200] I've got three, so we've lost the art of nuance.
[37:41.200 -> 37:42.200] I'm going to say that.
[37:42.200 -> 37:43.200] I'm going to say that.
[37:43.200 -> 37:44.200] I'm going to say that.
[37:44.200 -> 37:45.000] I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going. Shut up, shut up, you make the point. I've got another one.
[37:45.000 -> 37:48.000] You can do it from a journalist's side, which is relevant.
[37:48.000 -> 37:50.000] So we've lost the art of nuance.
[37:50.000 -> 37:51.000] I've got four.
[37:51.000 -> 37:55.000] I struggle more and more as a football host.
[37:55.000 -> 37:59.000] Operating in a world with zero nuance and massive anger and strong opinions,
[37:59.000 -> 38:04.000] and our podcast is all about find the nuance, find the empathy, find the understanding.
[38:04.000 -> 38:05.400] And those two things
[38:05.400 -> 38:10.320] were really starting to clash in my professional life really. And I found it really hard to
[38:10.320 -> 38:14.240] stand and talk about should a manager be sacked, should a referee be criticized, should a player
[38:14.240 -> 38:18.600] be dropped on live on the television when all week I'm talking about let's understand
[38:18.600 -> 38:22.960] someone what are they carrying, what's the challenge. So that's the first thing, losing
[38:22.960 -> 38:29.440] the art of nuance. The second thing plays into that, which is this idea of like leaning into people. I think
[38:29.440 -> 38:33.360] it's really hard to dislike someone when you lean in and understand them. And you know,
[38:33.360 -> 38:36.280] Damien and I now do a lot of work going into businesses and talking to them about high
[38:36.280 -> 38:41.240] performance. And a lot of people talk in business world about resilience. And like what we
[38:41.240 -> 38:49.380] say is, well, how resilient you need to be in the face of kindness and not very resilient at all and too many of us are walking
[38:49.380 -> 38:52.540] around having to be resilient when we shouldn't need to be because we're not
[38:52.540 -> 38:55.980] getting to know each other you know if you're listening to this at work you
[38:55.980 -> 38:58.860] might know how your colleague takes their tea but have they got an ill
[38:58.860 -> 39:02.780] parent have they got a health challenge that are dealing with have they got a
[39:02.780 -> 39:09.600] child with personality or behavioral difficulties? You know, what's going on around that that maybe leans into
[39:09.600 -> 39:12.680] things and that wonderful phrase, if you'd have lived the life they lived, you'd act
[39:12.680 -> 39:17.760] in exactly the same way. Which was shared with us by a previous excellent guest on High
[39:17.760 -> 39:18.760] Performance.
[39:18.760 -> 39:19.760] So, I think there's…
[39:19.760 -> 39:20.760] That's the point I'm trying to make.
[39:20.760 -> 39:28.480] So, there's that. And I think the final one is, I suppose when you've done the, you know,
[39:28.480 -> 39:33.480] particularly the job that Fern and I have done on the telly for many, many years, like
[39:33.480 -> 39:37.600] this idea of being judged is painful, right? And the criticism you have to live with, and
[39:37.600 -> 39:42.320] for a long time, that sort of social media criticism I was getting just for literally
[39:42.320 -> 39:49.880] going to work to do the best I could to pay my mortgage and feed my kids and my wife was like ridiculous and was definitely a contribution to challenging
[39:49.880 -> 39:56.680] mental health period. So I think the final thing that I love about doing podcasts is
[39:56.680 -> 40:00.520] just stopping people from being so bloody judgmental of others. Like we're the only
[40:00.520 -> 40:04.600] species on the planet that seem to be like this. Like you don't have koalas looking at
[40:04.600 -> 40:08.320] each other going, oh I've overdone the eucalyptus a bit, or, you know, a tortoise going,
[40:08.320 -> 40:10.160] oh, your shell isn't that shining, bro?
[40:10.160 -> 40:14.080] You know, we're the only species that seem to think the worst of everybody else,
[40:14.080 -> 40:15.760] and I don't understand why we've got to this place.
[40:15.760 -> 40:18.480] Because we're all deeply and self-loathing ourselves.
[40:18.480 -> 40:19.840] That's the only problem.
[40:19.840 -> 40:21.840] I think you're a fucking idiot.
[40:21.840 -> 40:22.880] Now prove me wrong.
[40:22.880 -> 40:24.960] That seems to be the starting point for everyone.
[40:24.960 -> 40:25.000] Yeah, you're already pointing at me now prove me wrong. That seems to be the starting point for everyone.
[40:25.000 -> 40:28.000] Yeah, you're already pointing at me out of everyone.
[40:28.000 -> 40:32.000] Finally I can reveal what I've been harbouring for 20 years.
[40:32.000 -> 40:37.000] But this idea that, like, I'm gonna think the worst of you until you prove me wrong
[40:37.000 -> 40:40.000] is so dangerous and so prevalent.
[40:40.000 -> 40:42.000] I'd much rather we lived in a world where it's like,
[40:42.000 -> 40:44.000] I'm gonna think the best of you until you prove me wrong,
[40:44.000 -> 40:49.240] and I think hopefully we shine a light on people, all
[40:49.240 -> 40:52.840] of us by the way I'm talking about, to a really deep level so that people listening can go,
[40:52.840 -> 40:57.000] shit, I didn't know that about you and now I understand an awful lot more. So just understanding
[40:57.000 -> 40:58.000] each other.
[40:58.000 -> 40:59.000] Yeah, just a very good point.
[40:59.000 -> 41:00.000] Doing our best, right?
[41:00.000 -> 41:08.960] Yeah, I've loved every single one of those answers. And I suppose I just want to underline the fact that we're talking about connection.
[41:08.960 -> 41:09.960] Yes.
[41:09.960 -> 41:13.240] And about forging a point of common ground.
[41:13.240 -> 41:18.240] And I don't think there's much greater respect that you can pay to someone other than really
[41:18.240 -> 41:23.800] listening to what they have to say and creating space for what they have to say because each
[41:23.800 -> 41:26.240] individual is unique and important.
[41:26.240 -> 41:30.280] And actually, all the bad things, all the fear we feel,
[41:30.280 -> 41:33.680] the ignorance, the prejudice, the discrimination that flourishes,
[41:33.680 -> 41:36.480] comes about when we don't understand each other,
[41:36.480 -> 41:38.600] when we don't know each other.
[41:38.600 -> 41:42.640] And so, really, a deep conversation is about attacking that notion.
[41:42.640 -> 41:44.640] And you're right that we live in a culture
[41:44.640 -> 41:50.720] where nuance is increasingly sidelined, as is the ability to say, I don't know, teach
[41:50.720 -> 41:55.880] me about that. Please tell me about it. That's how we learn. That's how we grow. And so much
[41:55.880 -> 42:03.220] of social media or 24 hour news cycle is about soundbites and having an immediate reaction
[42:03.220 -> 42:05.540] to something. And a lot of the time, I haven't
[42:05.540 -> 42:10.080] had time to formulate an opinion. The way that I learn about the world is by asking
[42:10.080 -> 42:15.760] other people who know better, more different things than I do. And that's why I think deep
[42:15.760 -> 42:20.960] conversations are so crucially important. And by the way, my final point, a conversation
[42:20.960 -> 42:26.560] might be deep, but it doesn't have to be serious. It doesn't always have to be about trauma or what we've overcome
[42:26.560 -> 42:27.760] or what we've learned about resilience,
[42:27.760 -> 42:30.880] although those are some of the most amazing conversations I've ever had.
[42:30.880 -> 42:34.080] You can have a deep conversation about lighthearted things too.
[42:34.080 -> 42:36.240] That's all about what makes us human.
[42:36.240 -> 42:39.280] But podcasts are absolutely fucking amazing.
[42:39.280 -> 42:39.680] Yes!
[42:39.680 -> 42:43.360] At creating a space for that and the length that we need
[42:43.360 -> 42:46.720] for that kind of intimate human connection.
[42:46.720 -> 42:48.240] Elizabeth Day every morning.
[42:48.240 -> 42:49.080] Thank you, Scott.
[42:49.080 -> 42:49.900] Brilliant.
[42:49.900 -> 42:52.560] That was seriously good.
[42:52.560 -> 42:55.600] I really feel that long-form conversation,
[42:55.600 -> 42:58.680] these deep conversations are the modern day campfire.
[42:58.680 -> 43:02.280] I really strongly believe that as we become lonelier,
[43:02.280 -> 43:05.600] more isolated, more addicted to short form content,
[43:05.600 -> 43:08.560] now, now, now, I don't have time to do anything.
[43:08.560 -> 43:11.000] I just want to get through.
[43:11.000 -> 43:14.560] I think podcasting is the antidote to that for so many people.
[43:14.560 -> 43:23.920] It is for me, where you can take some time, get away, create space, go on your walk and
[43:23.920 -> 43:26.240] listen to one of your favorite
[43:26.240 -> 43:29.480] podcasts and hear a deep conversation.
[43:29.480 -> 43:33.600] And it's only through conversations with others that we get to know who we are.
[43:33.600 -> 43:40.760] So I think all of us on our shows what we do, we're having an intimate conversation
[43:40.760 -> 43:43.400] with our guest.
[43:43.400 -> 43:47.400] But that in some way is reflecting on to the listener. They're
[43:47.400 -> 43:50.640] hearing what they want to hear from it. They're taking a bit, oh, that's relevant for me in
[43:50.640 -> 43:57.880] my life. So I think deep conversations are needed today more than ever before. If we
[43:57.880 -> 44:03.240] think about the division that's going on, the toxicity, you know, certainly in the online
[44:03.240 -> 44:07.360] world, I think podcasting can save the world. I genuinely
[44:07.360 -> 44:12.280] do believe that because yeah, I really do. I absolutely believe that long form conversation
[44:12.280 -> 44:16.660] can save the world because it's like that phrase I shared with you guys on when I came
[44:16.660 -> 44:22.300] on high performance that if you were that person, you would be doing exactly the same
[44:22.300 -> 44:29.800] thing as them. That for me has been a massive shift in how I approach life over the last few years.
[44:29.800 -> 44:31.660] And it's changed everything.
[44:31.660 -> 44:36.840] And deep conversation fits in there because once you hear someone, you hear them speak,
[44:36.840 -> 44:43.260] you hear them articulate the reasons why they believe the things that they do, we just understand
[44:43.260 -> 44:44.260] people better.
[44:44.260 -> 44:45.320] We become kinder, we become
[44:45.320 -> 44:50.440] less judgmental, we become more forgiving.
[44:50.440 -> 44:56.240] It's a time of year for gratitude. What is one thing your podcast has made you grateful
[44:56.240 -> 44:57.240] for?
[44:57.240 -> 44:58.240] Jake.
[44:58.240 -> 45:03.000] Basically, it's given me freedom. Like I feel like, I don't know whether everyone feels
[45:03.000 -> 45:05.680] like this, that is involved in the TV industry,
[45:05.680 -> 45:08.920] but it feels like the most, you might have an answer for this, it feels like the most
[45:08.920 -> 45:12.560] exciting job in the world when you're 17. It feels like a pretty incredible job when
[45:12.560 -> 45:17.900] you're 21. Still feels like a rather amazing job when you're 27 and 28. But then there
[45:17.900 -> 45:23.520] comes a time almost where you feel like, why am I addicted to being on television? Why
[45:23.520 -> 45:25.560] do I need to do this?
[45:25.560 -> 45:27.800] Is this really what I was put here for?
[45:27.800 -> 45:30.520] Another conversation about another sporting event
[45:30.520 -> 45:33.240] or something like that, or the hardest ones,
[45:33.240 -> 45:36.380] for me anyway, was hosting daytime quizzes
[45:36.380 -> 45:39.240] where you're like, I did this show
[45:39.240 -> 45:41.080] after I finished doing Formula One
[45:41.080 -> 45:42.460] where it was a daytime quiz show,
[45:42.460 -> 45:43.300] and I was used to saying,
[45:43.300 -> 45:47.080] if Sebastian Vettel wins this race, is the champion of the world and that felt
[45:47.080 -> 45:50.880] kind of like it mattered and then I'm standing there going okay answer this
[45:50.880 -> 45:56.400] question for 15 pounds. Do you want to hear my worst quiz show like this? Yes please.
[45:56.400 -> 46:08.480] I'm age 17 yeah and I'm hosting a TV show called Pet Swap, where the children who come on the game show dress up
[46:08.480 -> 46:13.200] as their pet, could be a gerbil, could be a rabbit, and they then do an assault course
[46:13.200 -> 46:17.160] that is relevant to that animal. Beat that.
[46:17.160 -> 46:20.120] Dressing up as a lobster running around the Blue Peter Garden popping balloons of foam.
[46:20.120 -> 46:21.120] Large starfish temporary.
[46:21.120 -> 46:22.120] It was pretty bad.
[46:22.120 -> 46:27.040] So anyway, I suppose the point is, and you might feel the same, is that you feel in some
[46:27.040 -> 46:32.760] ways chained to doing that, because that's your job. And actually, when you start creating
[46:32.760 -> 46:36.680] something and talking about something that you really love, you feel like this, like
[46:36.680 -> 46:41.840] it feels really intentional, it feels really purpose-driven. And it feels like we're still
[46:41.840 -> 46:44.240] certainly on high performance. I don't know what the rest of you think. I feel like we're
[46:44.240 -> 46:47.100] at about 5% of what we actually could be. I feel this could
[46:47.100 -> 46:53.260] be really, really incredible. So I feel it's given me freedom. And hopefully, you know,
[46:53.260 -> 46:57.500] it's given the audience something special along the way. Can you relate to that TV analogy?
[46:57.500 -> 47:01.280] Yeah, I mean, totally. I feel I probably got a more sort of selfishly skewed answer as
[47:01.280 -> 47:09.040] well because I definitely get that sense of freedom. Also, I'm extremely grateful that I just get to meet the most interesting people every week.
[47:09.040 -> 47:13.140] Like you were saying earlier, Damien, everyone's got a story to tell. And it feels like an
[47:13.140 -> 47:17.560] absolute privilege to just sit and listen to someone else's story. It gets me out of
[47:17.560 -> 47:23.600] my own bullshit. We've all got the propensity to go, oh, and this is going wrong, and I
[47:23.600 -> 47:25.000] should be doing this, and all these intricate bits of the day, and this is going wrong, and I should be doing this and all
[47:25.000 -> 47:28.680] these intricate bits of the day, and we're so stuck in our own little bubble of stuff.
[47:28.680 -> 47:32.320] And then you listen to someone else speak, and you're like, oh, my God, there's so many
[47:32.320 -> 47:39.520] other perspectives and lived lives and experience and angles to look at everything. So every
[47:39.520 -> 47:44.880] time I do a podcast, I get sort of woken up again, I get sort of shaken, like, come on,
[47:44.880 -> 47:45.120] wake up, Fern, get out of your own bullshit again. I get sort of shaken, like, come on, wake up
[47:45.120 -> 47:49.520] Fern, get out of your own bullshit, every time I have that experience. So I think selfishly,
[47:49.520 -> 47:53.760] it is about the meeting of new people, the hearing of new stories.
[47:53.760 -> 47:56.960] And how long did you slide back into your own bullshit afterwards?
[47:56.960 -> 48:01.880] I mean, it really depends on what we've chatted about. Some have stayed with me a very long
[48:01.880 -> 48:05.800] time. Like, I remember when we interviewed Ashley Kane and he talked
[48:05.800 -> 48:11.680] about losing his daughter. I did not stop thinking about that for months and months.
[48:11.680 -> 48:17.000] And I still think about him and I'm still in touch with him a lot. But we're so lucky
[48:17.000 -> 48:22.020] that we get, hopefully the listeners have a similar experience of, oh, yeah, let me
[48:22.020 -> 48:25.680] get out of my own head for a minute and think about other
[48:25.680 -> 48:30.800] lived lives. I get to turn up to work now as myself, not this sort of sugar-coated version
[48:30.800 -> 48:36.000] of myself that has to be super happy and positive all the time and pretend to like songs that
[48:36.000 -> 48:40.560] I don't. I'm, you know, I can just be like, I've had a shit day or I've had a good day
[48:40.560 -> 48:44.480] or whatever. And I feel like I'm, you know, I can luckily say that.
[48:44.480 -> 48:45.320] We're the lucky ones. We're lucky. or I've had a good day or whatever. And I feel like I'm, you know, I can luckily say that.
[48:45.320 -> 48:46.320] We're the lucky ones.
[48:46.320 -> 48:47.320] We're lucky.
[48:47.320 -> 48:49.840] I feel so lucky I found your podcast. I'm like, you feel lucky.
[48:49.840 -> 48:50.840] We're lucky.
[48:50.840 -> 48:51.840] We just get to do this.
[48:51.840 -> 48:52.840] We are so lucky.
[48:52.840 -> 48:53.840] How fortunate is that?
[48:53.840 -> 49:02.600] It's so fortunate. I'm incredibly grateful for the community and for the fact that it
[49:02.600 -> 49:07.840] has changed my life. I am aware of the irony that a podcast called How to Fail,
[49:07.840 -> 49:10.320] which came out of my own feeling of failure,
[49:10.320 -> 49:13.800] has gone on to become the most successful thing I've ever done.
[49:13.800 -> 49:16.800] I will never stop being grateful for that.
[49:16.800 -> 49:19.960] I'll never stop laughing at the absurdity of it.
[49:19.960 -> 49:21.400] But it has brought me into contact,
[49:21.400 -> 49:23.000] it's exactly what you said, really,
[49:23.000 -> 49:25.720] not only with incredible people that I've met
[49:25.720 -> 49:27.440] through them being a guest
[49:27.440 -> 49:28.920] and doing me the honor of being a guest,
[49:28.920 -> 49:33.480] but the people who listen and who make me feel seen as I am.
[49:33.480 -> 49:34.960] And I'm sure you all relate to this.
[49:34.960 -> 49:38.080] There's something so special about doing a live show
[49:38.080 -> 49:40.240] or doing a festival as Fern does,
[49:40.240 -> 49:43.680] that you feel that wave of acceptance.
[49:43.680 -> 49:48.420] That's the most beautiful thing. I feel my interview
[49:48.420 -> 49:52.280] style is appreciated just for what it is.
[49:52.280 -> 49:53.280] Yeah.
[49:53.280 -> 49:54.280] Yeah.
[49:54.280 -> 49:57.480] Which is such a relief. And it took me a while to believe that. It took me a few seasons.
[49:57.480 -> 50:00.960] And I think if you listen to my early interviews, I'm still finding my feet and I'm still a
[50:00.960 -> 50:01.960] bit nervous.
[50:01.960 -> 50:02.960] Oh, we all were. I don't want to listen back to my early ones.
[50:02.960 -> 50:03.960] I couldn't do it. I don't think I'd go back to the early days.
[50:03.960 -> 50:04.960] No. Sadly.
[50:04.960 -> 50:06.400] Because you know, I used to go and knock on the door in the early ones. Yeah, we used to go and knock'm still a bit nervous. Oh, we all were. I don't want to listen back to that. I couldn't do it, I don't think I'd go back to it.
[50:06.400 -> 50:07.400] No.
[50:07.400 -> 50:09.600] Did you not used to go and knock on the door in the early ones?
[50:09.600 -> 50:13.600] Yeah, we used to go home like, I'm on the train, going, what the fuck was that about?
[50:13.600 -> 50:16.600] Yeah, I mean, eating a Cornish pasty on the train, no one cares.
[50:16.600 -> 50:18.600] I remember you going to knock on Mary Berry's front door.
[50:18.600 -> 50:19.600] Mary Berry's front door.
[50:19.600 -> 50:20.600] I remember that.
[50:20.600 -> 50:23.200] I found out I was in the front garden when you were talking about the fox gloves.
[50:23.200 -> 50:25.240] Of course, you've got a great memory. I don't remember that.
[50:25.240 -> 50:29.360] But that, I would still rather look back on my early happy places than like,
[50:29.360 -> 50:33.000] me on the telly in the 90s, which really makes the old toes curl.
[50:33.000 -> 50:34.440] I don't even want to go there.
[50:34.440 -> 50:37.800] But yeah, we've all, we've learned and we've grown and we've changed because of it.
[50:37.800 -> 50:38.600] It's great.
[50:38.600 -> 50:39.240] Damo?
[50:39.240 -> 50:43.080] I'd sort of really welcome the chance just to treat people with kindness,
[50:43.080 -> 50:45.160] to try and come with that empathy
[50:45.160 -> 50:50.800] and understanding and hopefully it gets reciprocated. So what I find is that when I meet people
[50:50.800 -> 50:55.400] now that listen to the podcast, they tend to be kind back and I think what you give
[50:55.400 -> 51:01.400] out comes back at you in ripples. So I often find that rather than coming in with judgments
[51:01.400 -> 51:08.720] or opinions, just trying to be empathetic to people. So a really good example for us was, I know you had her at the Happy Place Festival,
[51:08.720 -> 51:14.600] was Vicky Patterson. And I'd never heard of her, I wasn't aware of her story and
[51:14.600 -> 51:18.600] she sent us a copy of her book and I was horrified as a father of a daughter some
[51:18.600 -> 51:23.760] of the stories she'd been through. And yet when we met her on the podcast, she
[51:23.760 -> 51:25.960] sort of admitted she was a little bit fearful
[51:25.960 -> 51:28.920] of coming on what she thought was a male-dominated podcast.
[51:28.920 -> 51:33.440] And just the chance to be able to role model kindness and empathy and understanding for
[51:33.440 -> 51:39.000] what she'd been through rather than a judgment or some sort of snide, snaring remark about
[51:39.000 -> 51:43.240] it I think ended up being a really good interview because it was a level of connection.
[51:43.240 -> 51:48.160] So I think just the opportunity to role model kindness, that you get to do it,
[51:48.160 -> 51:50.560] what I've found is that it tends to come back at you in waves.
[51:50.560 -> 51:54.240] You need to reclaim the word kindness, Damian. That's yours, you can have that.
[51:54.240 -> 51:56.480] Can I have another thing I'm grateful for, actually, really quickly?
[51:56.480 -> 51:57.480] Yeah.
[51:57.480 -> 51:58.480] I'm really grateful for you.
[51:58.480 -> 51:59.480] Aw, thank you, mate.
[51:59.480 -> 52:02.520] Because, you know, this is the only sort of double header podcast in the room,
[52:02.520 -> 52:03.760] if you like, with two hosts.
[52:03.760 -> 52:07.840] And honestly, I do think that if I'd have just tried to do this on my own,
[52:07.840 -> 52:10.840] it would have lasted about five episodes, and I would now be meeting commissioners begging
[52:10.840 -> 52:11.840] for a job on the telly.
[52:11.840 -> 52:12.840] Give me that quiz show!
[52:12.840 -> 52:17.880] Exactly. Please let me on the daytime quiz show. And honestly, what you bring to high
[52:17.880 -> 52:22.340] performance, the empathy, the understanding, the amazing knowledge you have of psychological
[52:22.340 -> 52:31.920] studies and research from over the years, but just being like a really genuine and generous, kind, nice guy doesn't get mentioned enough.
[52:31.920 -> 52:35.360] I don't think I say it often enough, so I'm really grateful for what you've brought to
[52:35.360 -> 52:38.800] high performance. You are the true high performer. Thank you, Benny.
[52:38.800 -> 52:39.800] That's lovely.
[52:39.800 -> 52:44.440] Thanks, mate. And I'm also grateful to Fionn, because she told us to do high performance.
[52:44.440 -> 52:47.080] We weren't going to do a podcast. Yeah, we We had a phone chat and I was like, do it!
[52:47.080 -> 52:50.160] I rang her and said, I'm not gonna bother, I don't have a podcast, I'm not sure it's
[52:50.160 -> 52:51.160] for me.
[52:51.160 -> 52:52.680] She said it's the greatest thing I've ever done.
[52:52.680 -> 52:57.480] So genuinely Fern is probably the reason why it happened.
[52:57.480 -> 53:01.120] I mean, where to start in terms of what it makes you grateful for.
[53:01.120 -> 53:05.200] At the end of every conversation, I feel energized.
[53:05.200 -> 53:11.040] Like I feel even if I've caused myself a bit of stress by thinking I'm not prepared enough
[53:11.040 -> 53:15.000] or I didn't get through the entire book, I got through 80% of the book or whatever it
[53:15.000 -> 53:17.280] might be.
[53:17.280 -> 53:23.560] When I let go and have the conversation, it always flows because it's just a conversation,
[53:23.560 -> 53:24.560] right?
[53:24.560 -> 53:26.320] And I always feel full of life and
[53:26.320 -> 53:32.320] energy afterwards. And so, I know this sounds potentially as though I'm exaggerating, but
[53:32.320 -> 53:40.000] I honestly believe that podcasting has really made me appreciative of being alive and being
[53:40.000 -> 53:46.400] able to have these conversations. I just love them so much. I put so much of myself into
[53:46.400 -> 53:52.880] them. I think I spoke about this when I was on How to Fail Elizabeth about perfectionism
[53:52.880 -> 53:59.080] and recovering perfectionist. I think it really helps to teach me to let go and go, it's alright
[53:59.080 -> 54:06.160] and anything's okay. Just connect with this person, talk to them. And so it really makes me grateful
[54:06.160 -> 54:11.620] about life. It makes me grateful that I get to do podcasting and have these conversations
[54:11.620 -> 54:18.260] with people. But I also want people to not think that they need to have a podcast to
[54:18.260 -> 54:22.360] do the sorts of things we're talking about. What we're talking about is just an intimate
[54:22.360 -> 54:25.040] conversation, where you pay
[54:25.040 -> 54:31.760] attention and you listen. Every single person can do that in their own lives and it's a real moment
[54:31.760 -> 54:37.040] of connection and presence which I think is very hard to get. Sometimes I think I don't honestly
[54:37.040 -> 54:43.040] think I sometimes will sit with my wife for two hours and none of us get distracted or have to
[54:43.040 -> 54:45.700] do something else. So I just feel an incredible
[54:45.700 -> 54:51.280] gratitude that I get to do it, but also hopefully showcase to people that you can also do it
[54:51.280 -> 54:55.240] in your own lives.
[54:55.240 -> 54:58.760] How has making the show affected you personally?
[54:58.760 -> 55:05.340] All of the things I've said, but I think the key aspect is teaching me how to deal with failure in my own life.
[55:05.340 -> 55:10.000] So I went through something difficult.
[55:10.000 -> 55:11.360] I've had recurrent miscarriages.
[55:11.360 -> 55:15.400] The last one that I had was a couple of years ago.
[55:15.400 -> 55:20.480] And having done How to Fail helped me to know that I was going to be okay.
[55:20.480 -> 55:25.100] And it helped me to know that even if the failure itself had no meaning, in the fullness
[55:25.100 -> 55:28.980] of time, it would teach me something meaningful if I allowed it to.
[55:28.980 -> 55:31.620] So I think that.
[55:31.620 -> 55:49.720] It's helped me really understand how the way we're brought up impacts who we are as adults, but also how a lot of our personality is not who we are, it's who
[55:49.720 -> 55:52.040] we became.
[55:52.040 -> 55:59.580] And just as we became it, we can un-become it if we choose to.
[55:59.580 -> 56:07.040] So it's been really empowering for me because by talking to such a breadth of different people about so many different topics,
[56:08.240 -> 56:09.940] one of the things I think about a lot,
[56:09.940 -> 56:12.040] and I think the podcast has hugely informed this,
[56:12.040 -> 56:16.420] is that everything's stories.
[56:16.420 -> 56:19.480] Life is story.
[56:19.480 -> 56:22.780] And we get to choose so much of that story,
[56:22.780 -> 56:24.400] which I think is incredibly empowering.
[56:24.400 -> 56:25.320] So as I shared
[56:25.320 -> 56:32.680] before with Edith, but even beyond that, just the knowledge that I don't have to be a victim
[56:32.680 -> 56:38.600] of my past and I can create the future that I want, I think that's been the most powerful
[56:38.600 -> 56:42.160] message I've taken from my own show.
[56:42.160 -> 56:49.200] So, my podcast is called Happy Place, which can, we talked about titles earlier, can be
[56:49.200 -> 56:54.720] quite a loaded title. And I think I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that it's quite
[56:54.720 -> 57:00.480] loaded and that people might question the title Happy Place. The word happy is in there
[57:00.480 -> 57:09.140] because obviously I established the idea during a period where I really wasn't very happy and I was probably quite obsessional about happiness. And I think my podcast has
[57:09.140 -> 57:14.200] taught me that happiness isn't the be all and end all. And it's certainly not a final
[57:14.200 -> 57:19.500] destination that we reach at some point. It's gonna come and it's gonna go. And there's
[57:19.500 -> 57:27.160] actually so much wealth in sadness and anger and anxiety, like even the things that we fear, there's
[57:27.160 -> 57:31.320] something to be learned from all of them and I really didn't see that at that point in
[57:31.320 -> 57:35.640] my life. I was trying to reject anything that felt uncomfortable or that felt like it just
[57:35.640 -> 57:40.740] wasn't working for me. Whereas having all of these conversations has allowed me to see
[57:40.740 -> 57:44.620] that there's just a richness in everything we experience if we're willing to dig around
[57:44.620 -> 57:46.640] in it and learn the lessons.
[57:46.640 -> 57:52.000] Nice. It's taught me that I need to have the same conversations with the people in
[57:52.000 -> 57:53.800] my personal life as I have on my podcast.
[57:53.800 -> 57:56.040] Yeah, god, that's a big one.
[57:56.040 -> 57:58.960] Because I thought a while back, I thought, bloody hell, I love it when I do like three
[57:58.960 -> 58:02.680] or four records in a week. I feel engaged and empowered. And then I'm thinking, why
[58:02.680 -> 58:05.280] am I not feeling like that about the people I meet on the school
[58:05.280 -> 58:08.800] run or who come around for a drink or even I'm married to or live with?
[58:08.800 -> 58:12.200] You know, like, I should be having these kinds of conversations with everyone.
[58:12.200 -> 58:15.480] That's one big thing that it's taught me to try and connect to everybody, really like
[58:15.480 -> 58:16.480] connect.
[58:16.480 -> 58:19.880] And I think the second thing is that it's reframed my thinking of what high performance
[58:19.880 -> 58:20.880] is.
[58:20.880 -> 58:24.440] I genuinely started high performance thinking it was about the success, it was about the
[58:24.440 -> 58:29.180] glory, it was about the medal, the trophy, the big car, the nice house.
[58:29.180 -> 58:35.240] High performance, we've whittled down to three lines, which is do the best you can, where
[58:35.240 -> 58:36.840] you are, with what you've got.
[58:36.840 -> 58:40.200] And for some people, high performance is just getting out of bed.
[58:40.200 -> 58:42.080] For other people, it might be winning an Olympic medal.
[58:42.080 -> 58:43.920] But for all of us, it's the same thing.
[58:43.920 -> 58:46.240] Do the best you can, where you are with what you've got.
[58:46.240 -> 58:48.840] No one can ask you to do any more than that.
[58:48.840 -> 58:49.840] That's what it's taught me.
[58:49.840 -> 58:50.960] Yeah, me too.
[58:50.960 -> 58:55.120] Mine is just admitting the power of what you don't know and getting comfortable with it.
[58:55.120 -> 58:57.040] There's so many of our guests.
[58:57.040 -> 59:01.160] I remember quite early on we interviewed Dylan Hartley, the England rugby captain,
[59:01.160 -> 59:06.000] who'd come over to England from New Zealand at the age of 14 and speaks to
[59:06.000 -> 59:11.080] him about rugby and he was eloquent, he was smart, he was going into a level of granular
[59:11.080 -> 59:15.280] detail but he'd just become a dad and when we asked him about how many of these lessons
[59:15.280 -> 59:18.880] he was going to take to being a dad he went, I don't know mate, I've never done it before.
[59:18.880 -> 59:25.400] And it was a really good reminder of where your expertise ends and where the novice mindset begins.
[59:25.400 -> 59:29.160] And I think if there's one thread that we've seen through so many
[59:29.160 -> 59:33.800] is just the humility to not claim knowledge where you don't have it,
[59:33.800 -> 59:36.000] but to be curious and open-minded.
[59:36.000 -> 59:39.800] And I think so much of life depends on us just admitting,
[59:39.800 -> 59:41.800] I'm not sure, I don't know the answer to it.
[59:41.800 -> 59:43.600] Yeah, it's probably the healthiest thing you can do.
[59:43.600 -> 59:44.800] Yeah, it's liberating.
[59:44.800 -> 59:45.760] Yeah. I love that, guys. So did healthiest thing you can do. Yeah, it's liberating. Yeah.
[59:45.760 -> 59:46.760] I loved that, guys.
[59:46.760 -> 59:49.280] So did I, I want to do it every week.
[59:49.280 -> 59:50.280] Me too!
[59:50.280 -> 59:51.280] Thank you.
[59:51.280 -> 59:54.120] Every week might be a bit of a challenge for all our diaries, because this was hard enough,
[59:54.120 -> 59:56.600] by the way, to try and get us all in one room at the same time.
[59:56.600 -> 59:59.760] But how about we actually commit now, in a year's time, coming back.
[59:59.760 -> 01:00:00.760] Let's do it again.
[01:00:00.760 -> 01:00:01.760] Let's do it again.
[01:00:01.760 -> 01:00:04.400] And just seeing how things have changed for us in the last year, whether we feel the same,
[01:00:04.400 -> 01:00:05.400] feel differently, I don't know.
[01:00:05.400 -> 01:00:08.000] I'm bringing snacks next time, we're going to make a thing of it.
[01:00:08.000 -> 01:00:10.000] It's going to be a proper social to-do.
[01:00:10.000 -> 01:00:11.000] Catch up.
[01:00:11.000 -> 01:00:12.000] Amazing.
[01:00:12.000 -> 01:00:13.000] I hope you all have an amazing 2024.
[01:00:13.000 -> 01:00:18.000] And you guys, happy to have you all in my life.
[01:00:18.000 -> 01:00:19.000] Happy Christmas, guys.
[01:00:19.000 -> 01:00:20.000] Happy Christmas.
[01:00:20.000 -> 01:00:21.000] Happy Crimbo.
[01:00:21.000 -> 01:00:22.000] Damien.
[01:00:22.000 -> 01:00:23.000] Jay.
[01:00:23.000 -> 01:00:24.000] That was so much fun.
[01:00:24.000 -> 01:00:26.760] It was brilliant, wasn't it? Christmas. Damien, Jay, that was so much fun.
[01:00:26.760 -> 01:00:30.900] It was brilliant, wasn't it? Just to get out of the normal routine and have a chance to
[01:00:30.900 -> 01:00:36.160] sit down, ask each other some different questions and to listen to other people working in the
[01:00:36.160 -> 01:00:39.200] same world, their views of it.
[01:00:39.200 -> 01:00:42.080] We're like an old married couple, aren't we? We sort of, we like hanging out together,
[01:00:42.080 -> 01:00:46.520] but it's nice to have a change of scene now and then invite other people into the relationship.
[01:00:46.520 -> 01:00:53.480] Yeah, that's exactly... that's not exactly how I would have described us, but yeah, I
[01:00:53.480 -> 01:00:57.440] think we're like those two miserable fellas in the Muppet Show, shouting from the gallery.
[01:00:57.440 -> 01:01:00.520] There you go, wah! Alright, mate, I enjoyed it, thank you so much.
[01:01:00.520 -> 01:01:02.360] No, it was brilliant, thanks mate, loved it.
[01:01:02.360 -> 01:01:06.480] And of course, real big thanks to Fern, to Elizabeth and Rongan for buying into this,
[01:01:06.480 -> 01:01:10.560] for finding time. They're all really busy, but this was a kind of crazy idea that we
[01:01:10.560 -> 01:01:14.780] had to do this, and it wouldn't have happened unless they'd have bought into it. So, thanks
[01:01:14.780 -> 01:01:15.780] to them for that.
[01:01:15.780 -> 01:01:17.360] Thanks, Demo. Thanks, Jake.
[01:01:17.360 -> 01:01:21.840] And thanks to you for listening. Don't forget, remain humble, curious, empathetic, and go
[01:01:21.840 -> None] and find your own version of high performance. you
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