Please note that the summary is generated based on the transcript and
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Notes
Rob Baxter is the Director of Rugby for Exeter Chiefs, a club he played at for 14 years and captained for 10 years. Having won the European Rugby Championship in the 2019/20 season, this special episode will explore how Rob has installed resilience in himself and in his team to deal with the stress of competing as champions and to prepare for the tough seasons ahead.
Listen to Rob discuss what ‘A.C.E’ means to him and why it’s pinned up all round the Exeter training ground and find out how he built a culture to get a group of very different people to all go in the same direction. A recent poll of player agents in rugby placed Exeter Chiefs as the number one club that players wanted to play for – find out why!
We are delighted to work with Gallagher, Your Trusted Insurance Broker, to bring you this three part ‘Gallagher Leadership Series’ featuring leading Directors of Rugby - Rob Baxter, Alex Sanderson and Steve Borthwick.
Check out Gallagher’s new three-part series #RivalsTogether, bringing you candid player-to-player conversations about what leadership in rugby means to some of the Gallagher Prem's brightest stars.
## Building Resilience to Deal with Stress: A Conversation with Rob Baxter, Director of Rugby for Exeter Chiefs
### Key Points:
- **Creating a High-Performance Environment:** - Rob Baxter defines high performance as creating opportunities for individuals to maximize their potential and perform at their best. - He emphasizes the alignment of individual goals with team success, recognizing that maximizing the team's performance ultimately benefits each player.
- **Aligning Individual and Team Goals:** - Baxter stresses the importance of helping players understand that their individual success is tied to the team's success. - He explains that players need to buy into the team's goals, strategies, and plans to achieve collective success.
- **Overcoming Selfishness:** - Baxter acknowledges that some players may have strong egos and individualistic perspectives. - He emphasizes the need for patience and a gradual approach to building a culture where players prioritize team success over personal glory.
- **Utilizing External Examples:** - Baxter shares his strategy of using examples from war films and historical events to illustrate the importance of teamwork and sacrifice. - He highlights the concept of "flying in formation" to emphasize the strength and resilience that come from collective effort.
- **Dealing with the Stress of Leadership:** - Baxter admits that it can be challenging to transition from being a player to a director of rugby, where he must oversee the team's performance from a distance. - He emphasizes the importance of resilience and the ability to rationalize decisions, knowing that he is working towards the success of the team and the players.
- **Managing Leadership Loneliness:** - Baxter acknowledges that leadership can be lonely, especially in times of stress. - He highlights the value of having a strong support system, including colleagues and mentors, to share responsibilities and provide guidance.
- **Importance of Resilience:** - Baxter emphasizes the significance of resilience in dealing with stress and challenges in both personal and professional life. - He stresses the need to develop strategies for coping with setbacks and maintaining a positive mindset.
- **Seeking Inspiration from Others:** - Baxter reveals that he seeks inspiration and learning opportunities from a variety of sources, including books, podcasts, and conversations with other leaders. - He encourages individuals to be open to learning from different perspectives and experiences.
- **Advice for Aspiring Leaders:** - Baxter advises aspiring leaders to focus on developing their communication and interpersonal skills. - He emphasizes the importance of being able to connect with people, understand their needs, and provide clear and effective direction.
- **Maintaining a Positive Mindset:** - Baxter highlights the importance of maintaining a positive mindset, even in challenging situations. - He encourages individuals to focus on the things they can control, learn from their mistakes, and stay committed to their goals.
# Summary of the Podcast Episode
## Introduction
- Rob Baxter, Director of Rugby for Exeter Chiefs, shares his insights on resilience and leadership in rugby. - He emphasizes the importance of building a culture of trust, open communication, and shared accountability within the team.
## Key Points:
**1. Navigating the Loneliness of Leadership:**
- Baxter acknowledges the loneliness that often comes with leadership positions, especially when making crucial decisions that impact the livelihoods of many individuals. - He finds solace in his supportive family and his farming background, which instilled in him a stoic approach to challenges. - Baxter believes in taking one step at a time and breaking down daunting tasks into smaller, manageable actions.
**2. Fostering a Culture of Psychological Safety:**
- Baxter highlights the significance of creating an environment where players feel comfortable taking risks and expressing themselves without fear of judgment or criticism. - He emphasizes the need for players to develop their skills and abilities through practice and hard work, rather than relying solely on instinct or "giving it a go." - True resilience, according to Baxter, comes from the ability to commit fully to the game and accept the possibility of failure as a necessary part of growth.
**3. Embracing Failure as a Path to Growth:**
- Baxter believes that exposing oneself to failure, especially in high-pressure situations, is crucial for development. - He encourages players to learn from their mistakes and use them as opportunities for improvement. - Baxter stresses that the difference between winning and losing can be incredibly narrow, and it's essential to focus on the process and the lessons learned rather than solely on the outcome.
**4. Avoiding the Roller Coaster of Emotions:**
- Baxter emphasizes the importance of avoiding extreme emotional highs and lows in response to wins and losses. - He advocates for a consistent approach, where players and staff enjoy every game, regardless of the result, and focus on improving their performance. - Baxter believes in establishing a stable emotional environment within the club, where everyone is aligned in their values and goals.
**5. The Evolution of ACE to GRACE to Me:**
- Baxter shares the journey of the club's core values, which evolved from ACE (Attitude, Commitment, Enjoyment) to GRACE (Graft, Respect, Attitude, Commitment, Enjoyment) and finally to the current iteration, which centers around "Me." - He explains that these values were derived from player input and reflect the team's desire to embody a collective identity that values hard work, respect, and individual responsibility.
**6. Non-Negotiable Behaviors:**
- Baxter emphasizes the importance of non-negotiable behaviors that everyone in the club must adhere to. - He believes that working hard, enjoying the process, and maintaining consistency are fundamental to success.
**7. Revisiting a Special Moment:**
- If given the chance to go back to a moment in his life, Baxter chooses the time when his children were 10 and 7 years old. - He cherishes this period as a time of great connection and fulfillment, where his children still needed him but had gained enough independence to explore their own interests.
In this captivating podcast episode, Rob Baxter, Director of Rugby for Exeter Chiefs, unveils his strategies for building resilience and cultivating a winning culture within his team.
Baxter emphasizes the importance of creating an environment where players feel safe taking risks and learning from mistakes. He believes that fostering a culture of continuous improvement and embracing challenges leads to greater success on and off the field.
Baxter shares his philosophy of "ACE," which stands for Attitude, Commitment, and Effort. He emphasizes that these three elements are essential for achieving excellence in rugby and in life. He encourages his players to maintain a positive attitude, even in challenging situations, and to demonstrate unwavering commitment and effort in everything they do.
Baxter also highlights the value of work-life balance and encourages his players to pursue activities outside of rugby that bring them joy and fulfillment. He believes that a well-rounded individual is a more resilient and effective performer.
The podcast delves into Baxter's approach to leadership and his ability to connect with players from diverse backgrounds. He emphasizes the importance of understanding individual strengths and weaknesses and tailoring his coaching style accordingly. Baxter's genuine care for his players and his ability to create a sense of belonging have contributed to Exeter Chiefs' success and made them the number one club that players aspire to play for.
Baxter's insights into team dynamics, resilience, and leadership provide valuable lessons for anyone seeking to achieve high performance in their personal and professional lives. The podcast offers a thought-provoking exploration of the qualities and strategies that contribute to sustained success and fulfillment.
Raw Transcript with Timestamps
[00:00.000 -> 00:06.280] Hi there, once again, you're listening to High Performance, our gift to you for free [00:06.280 -> 00:11.160] every single week. And I've got some good news for you because for the next three Wednesdays, [00:11.160 -> 00:15.820] we've got something special. Welcome to the first Gallagher Leadership Series episode [00:15.820 -> 00:21.840] where myself and Professor Damian Hughes, our expert in organizational psychology, have [00:21.840 -> 00:25.200] a conversation with three leaders in English rugby. But as [00:25.200 -> 00:29.840] always, let me just be clear, this is not a conversation about rugby. Over the next [00:29.840 -> 00:36.520] hour or so, you're going to hear us discuss mindset, growth, discipline, sacrifice, success. [00:36.520 -> 00:40.040] Here's what's in store on today's high performance podcast. [00:40.040 -> 00:46.880] That to me is very much the way to look at most things in life. You know, there's a lot of things that look quite daunting and look [00:46.880 -> 00:49.920] semi-impossible or this will never get done. [00:49.920 -> 00:52.920] And guess what, you know, you take your first step, you pick up your [00:52.920 -> 00:56.040] first bale of hay and you look around and it's done, isn't it? [00:57.680 -> 01:01.600] If you commit everything to something and you lose, that's heartbreaking [01:02.040 -> 01:04.200] because you sit there afterwards and you go, I don't know if I could [01:04.200 -> 01:08.240] have done any more today I've lost and and it's the ability to [01:08.240 -> 01:12.480] actually prepare to go to that level as often as possible that really [01:12.480 -> 01:17.640] moves you on. The biggest thing is exposing yourself to failure but not [01:17.640 -> 01:22.200] because it's okay to fail you know expose yourself to failure when it's not [01:22.200 -> 01:25.760] okay to fail you want desperately to win. That's the best way to move forward [01:27.520 -> 01:30.380] I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation today [01:30.520 -> 01:38.600] We're talking to Rob Baxter OBE and the theme of this conversation is building resilience to deal with stress now [01:38.600 -> 01:45.160] I'm sure that you're listening to this for a variety of reasons, but for almost every single issue in your life, resilience [01:45.160 -> 01:50.120] can get you through. Resilience is that golden nugget, that golden bullet that can see you [01:50.120 -> 01:55.160] through the toughest of times. And Rob has had some tough times and some amazing times. [01:55.160 -> 01:59.880] He's currently the director of rugby for Exeter Chiefs, but he spent 14 years there as a player, [01:59.880 -> 02:05.320] 10 of them as captain. He's been the head coach, and today he will discuss what the phrase [02:05.320 -> 02:10.100] ace means for him. Those three letters, A, C, E, they had them pinned up all around the [02:10.100 -> 02:14.840] training ground, but then they turned ace into grace. Hear him talk about that. He will [02:14.840 -> 02:19.480] discuss messaging for his players and taking different men from different walks of life [02:19.480 -> 02:24.680] and getting them to believe in the same process. He talks about leading, he talks about struggling, [02:24.680 -> 02:29.800] he talks about where he goes to learn. And you know, in 2019 there was a poll among rugby players [02:29.800 -> 02:33.960] and the results were that Exeter Chiefs is the number one club that players wanted to [02:33.960 -> 02:40.280] play for because of the culture. And Rob Baxter has been central to creating that culture. [02:40.280 -> 02:43.320] Before we get on with the episode, though, just a quick story about what an interesting [02:43.320 -> 02:50.200] week Damien and myself had. So we had a call from the lovely Rachel who works with Stormzy. [02:50.200 -> 02:54.920] And she said that Stormzy would love us to go and watch his show. So well, I got on a [02:54.920 -> 03:01.040] plane from Stansted to Glasgow, Damien hopped on the train from Manchester to Glasgow, and [03:01.040 -> 03:06.280] we went to watch Stormzy this week in Glasgow perform in front of 10,000 people. [03:06.280 -> 03:10.000] The crowd were unbelievable. The energy in the room was something else. And then afterwards [03:10.000 -> 03:14.600] we had the opportunity to have a chat with him and it turns out that he and the whole [03:14.600 -> 03:18.720] of his team love high performance. And we managed to have this great conversation about [03:18.720 -> 03:23.880] why they listen to the podcast, why they share it among themselves. And what was really interesting [03:23.880 -> 03:30.620] was we were talking with Stormzy about the fact that success is not an accident and it isn't. No one is [03:30.620 -> 03:35.520] successful by accident. However, there is an algorithm. And I think that's why people [03:35.520 -> 03:40.300] love this podcast so much, because what we're saying is you can actually learn the traits [03:40.300 -> 03:49.200] and the mindsets and the secrets and the behaviors of successful people. Anyone can do anything and you are not fixed. [03:49.200 -> 03:54.800] So I hope that today's episode of High Performance gets you closer to your own version of High Performance. [03:54.800 -> 03:58.800] Just remember, everyone that you meet knows something you don't. [03:58.800 -> 04:00.800] So it's always best to ask a question. [04:00.800 -> 04:06.960] Today though, let us ask the questions of Rob Baxter, the director of rugby [04:06.960 -> 04:13.020] at Exeter Chiefs. Today's episode comes next. [04:13.020 -> 04:17.640] You know what? This amazing conversation, which is going to educate you, simply wouldn't [04:17.640 -> 04:23.800] be possible without our partners today, Gallagher, your trusted insurance broker. They are the [04:23.800 -> 04:25.000] reason we're able to create the Gallagher Leadership your trusted insurance broker. They are the reason we're able to create [04:25.000 -> 04:28.200] the Gallagher Leadership Series in association with the High Performance [04:28.200 -> 04:32.520] Podcast. And as you know, lots of people come to us, lots of people get turned [04:32.520 -> 04:36.880] down. You have to be special to work and partner with this podcast. And from the [04:36.880 -> 04:40.640] biggest multinationals and the largest construction projects in the world, right [04:40.640 -> 04:48.400] through to small businesses, sole traders and individuals, Gallagher works with these clients to protect what's most important to them [04:48.400 -> 04:52.480] and we love the culture of this business. As well as that, something else that's [04:52.480 -> 04:56.760] really important to us on High Performance is positively impacting [04:56.760 -> 05:01.360] communities and the environment and Gallagher have been named by Ethisphere [05:01.360 -> 05:09.000] as one of the world's most ethical companies for the last 10 consecutive years. And they're not new at this by the way, they've been [05:09.000 -> 05:14.760] delivering a world of solutions the Gallagher way since 1927. So if you want [05:14.760 -> 05:21.840] more information just visit AJG.com. That's AJG.com. And I also want to let [05:21.840 -> 05:25.600] you know that midway through this episode, you are going to hear [05:25.600 -> 05:29.320] something really cool, which is called Rivals Together, because you maybe already know that [05:29.320 -> 05:33.320] Galaga have been the proud title partner of Premiership Rugby since 2018. [05:33.320 -> 05:34.640] They do a brilliant job. [05:34.640 -> 05:38.320] They've recently reaffirmed their commitment to elite rugby's most competitive league with [05:38.320 -> 05:40.460] a new multi-year partnership deal. [05:40.460 -> 05:45.000] And Rivals Together gives you the inside track on leadership within the Gallagher Premiership [05:45.000 -> 05:49.000] by bringing together six players from some of rugby's greatest club rivalries [05:49.000 -> 05:51.000] for candid player-to-player discussions. [05:51.000 -> 05:55.000] It's really cool, and you'll also get a little sneak clip of that today. [05:59.000 -> 06:02.000] Well, Rob Baxter, welcome to the High Performance Podcast [06:02.000 -> 06:05.120] for a conversation about building resilience to deal [06:05.120 -> 06:08.560] with stress. And we're so happy to be having this conversation with you, Rob, because if there's [06:08.560 -> 06:13.840] one thing that we've realised since high performance began, it's that there are genuine parallels [06:13.840 -> 06:18.880] between sport and life and the things that you've been learning both on the rugby field and in your [06:18.880 -> 06:25.720] role now as the Director of Rugby at Exeter Chiefs are so useful for people in their everyday lives. [06:25.720 -> 06:27.440] So thank you very much for joining us. [06:27.440 -> 06:28.840] No problem. That's my pleasure. [06:28.840 -> 06:29.960] So we start Rob, [06:29.960 -> 06:33.280] with what is your opinion of high performance? [06:33.280 -> 06:34.640] What do you believe it to be? [06:34.640 -> 06:36.520] I kind of keep it very simple. [06:36.520 -> 06:39.360] I kind of, I've always looked at it as that, [06:39.360 -> 06:42.540] if we at the club or whatever I do, [06:42.540 -> 06:43.800] or the other coaches do, [06:43.800 -> 06:48.560] it's really about creating an opportunity for someone to maximize themselves, [06:48.560 -> 06:51.920] give them as many opportunities to just do the best they can do [06:51.920 -> 06:53.000] and be the best they can be. [06:53.000 -> 06:58.200] And I think that ultimately is what I describe as a high performance environment [06:58.200 -> 07:00.000] because everyone's got different abilities. [07:00.000 -> 07:03.480] There's always going to be, there's got to be a ceiling at some stage, [07:03.480 -> 07:05.440] hasn't there? Because that's the reality. [07:05.440 -> 07:06.600] World records don't get broken [07:06.600 -> 07:08.280] every time someone goes on the track. [07:08.280 -> 07:10.280] There are ceilings that take some pushing, [07:10.280 -> 07:12.280] but that doesn't mean that you can't create an environment [07:12.280 -> 07:15.360] where as many people within your organization [07:15.360 -> 07:17.120] are performing at the best of their abilities [07:17.120 -> 07:18.800] or they're maximizing their potential. [07:18.800 -> 07:20.720] So you're not always going to be performing [07:20.720 -> 07:22.480] right at the peak of your powers, [07:22.480 -> 07:23.800] but you can create a situation [07:23.800 -> 07:28.160] where they have the opportunity to perform at the peak of their powers. And I think that, that for me is [07:28.160 -> 07:32.320] what high performance is about. So it reminds us of another guest when we were joined by Phil Neville, [07:32.320 -> 07:36.800] who said to us, do the best you can with what you've got where you are, which is exactly what [07:36.800 -> 07:42.160] you're describing. So the question then is as a director of rugby, how do you create a culture [07:42.160 -> 07:52.000] at Exeter where people feel empowered to be the best they can with what they've got where they are and how they know, probably through a feedback loop, that they're operating to the best? [07:52.000 -> 07:57.000] Because lots of business people that listen to this are really interested in the direct takeaways from the sporting world. [07:57.000 -> 08:02.000] I think there's two things that need to be remembered here, because obviously it's a team sport. [08:02.000 -> 08:08.960] So what you've got to try and do, you've got to try and create that maximizing of individuals, but then actually the maximizing of the team. And they [08:08.960 -> 08:13.280] can actually be slightly different things. And I think for me, that's the key. If someone said to [08:13.280 -> 08:18.560] me, what is my job more than anything else at the club, wrapping up the team, the individual players, [08:18.560 -> 08:23.120] the whole thing, I would say, probably wrap it up in the word kind of like alignment, really. [08:23.120 -> 08:25.720] And when I say that, what I mean is that [08:25.720 -> 08:27.880] you align all the little bits that come together [08:27.880 -> 08:30.140] on a daily basis, but what is the goal? [08:30.140 -> 08:31.900] What is the success? [08:31.900 -> 08:34.980] And the very simple success is you win the game of rugby [08:34.980 -> 08:36.420] at the weekend. [08:36.420 -> 08:38.380] The game of rugby, if you win that game of rugby, [08:38.380 -> 08:41.060] then that creates the other things that are important [08:41.060 -> 08:43.620] for a business or the club or the business side of the club. [08:43.620 -> 08:48.560] So that ability to stay in the premiership straight away. [08:48.840 -> 08:52.220] So you've got to stay there at the high end of the game. [08:52.220 -> 08:55.480] Your ability to attract people to come and watch [08:55.480 -> 08:59.080] so you can create and sponsors to get involved [08:59.080 -> 09:00.400] and people to see the positive things [09:00.400 -> 09:02.960] about the fact that there's some success there. [09:02.960 -> 09:09.680] The other thing that obviously winning games games is you become a more attractive proposition for potentially England selectors, Scottish [09:09.680 -> 09:14.640] selectors, Welsh selectors look at. So your players have potentially more opportunity to be [09:14.640 -> 09:18.320] successfully individually. If they're successful individually, if they're good players in the [09:18.320 -> 09:28.040] winning side, they like to get good contracts or good offer contracts from either us or other sides. And so you start to align the process of, yes, you want your [09:28.040 -> 09:32.360] individuals to understand that by working hard, doing the best [09:32.360 -> 09:35.240] they can, as you say, and that best time is important for them. [09:35.640 -> 09:38.160] But then they also have to buy into what makes the team [09:38.160 -> 09:38.760] successful. [09:38.920 -> 09:42.480] So aligning, helping them work through the bits and pieces that [09:42.480 -> 09:46.840] help them be as good as they can, but then them understanding that actually there's going to be games, [09:46.840 -> 09:52.080] there might even be seasons where we might have a game plan that isn't exactly what they want it to be. [09:52.080 -> 09:55.960] But you build an understanding with them that by aligning with the team's goals, [09:55.960 -> 09:58.200] the team's strategies, the team's plans, [09:58.200 -> 10:02.520] that success together is actually success individually as well in many ways. [10:02.520 -> 10:06.000] Because if you're in a team that's losing every week, [10:06.000 -> 10:08.360] you can be a very, very good individual player. [10:08.360 -> 10:11.800] But actually, if the things you're doing are hurting the side, [10:11.800 -> 10:13.480] are you a good individual player? [10:13.480 -> 10:16.440] Are you really a good player in a team game [10:16.440 -> 10:18.120] if what you're doing is hurting the side? [10:18.120 -> 10:19.520] And so I would say that's for me. [10:19.520 -> 10:22.320] So my job really, I would say, is about alignment. [10:22.320 -> 10:24.440] And I've always said, I think the days [10:24.440 -> 10:26.160] we are a very, very good side, is when I. And I've always said, I think the days we are a very, very good side, [10:26.160 -> 10:28.840] so when I look and I can see the 15 guys on the field, [10:28.840 -> 10:31.200] they're aligned, they understand each other's roles, [10:31.200 -> 10:33.120] they understand it makes us a stronger team, [10:33.120 -> 10:35.180] they understand that them having the responsibility [10:35.180 -> 10:38.600] for their pieces allows the whole team to thrive. [10:38.600 -> 10:42.080] And the individual and collective thriving, really, [10:42.080 -> 10:43.040] does go hand in hand. [10:43.040 -> 10:44.760] It genuinely does. [10:44.760 -> 10:47.000] And I think if you can gain an understanding of that, [10:47.000 -> 10:51.000] that will also build that resilience of when things aren't quite right, [10:51.000 -> 10:52.000] what do you get back to? [10:52.000 -> 10:54.000] And there's those core fundamentals of my roles, [10:54.000 -> 10:56.000] my responsibilities within the team. [10:56.000 -> 10:58.000] How can I push those a little bit harder? [10:58.000 -> 11:02.000] How can I help other people keep to their part of the deal, so to speak? [11:02.000 -> 11:03.000] And I think those are the keys. [11:03.000 -> 11:04.000] Once you get an understanding of that, [11:04.000 -> 11:05.700] you can become quite a strong entity [11:05.700 -> 11:08.520] because 15 guys were all heading in this direction. [11:08.520 -> 11:09.360] You know, there's a lot of strong [11:09.360 -> 11:11.960] and 15 guys were heading off this direction. [11:11.960 -> 11:13.160] It's pretty obvious which one's going to be [11:13.160 -> 11:15.520] quite a dynamic, forceful and gain momentum [11:15.520 -> 11:18.360] and which one's just going to dissipate all its energy. [11:18.360 -> 11:19.200] I love that, Rob. [11:19.200 -> 11:21.640] And I think it, I think the way you've explained it there [11:21.640 -> 11:23.080] is they are a great coaching [11:23.080 -> 11:26.080] to make it really simple and accessible for us. [11:26.080 -> 11:36.920] I'd like to delve into some of the specifics, though, because the way you describe this requires a selflessness in many ways that people have to buy into that team ethic. [11:36.920 -> 11:46.280] So how do you deal with people that might come with egos and maybe do have that individual perspective and can't see the wider picture. [11:46.280 -> 11:48.880] How do you sort of integrate them into that [11:48.880 -> 11:50.600] and make them aware of it? [11:50.600 -> 11:52.760] I think this is where it's really important [11:52.760 -> 11:54.680] to kind of build relations with people. [11:54.680 -> 11:56.120] But I think it's also important [11:56.120 -> 11:58.600] that it doesn't happen immediately. [11:58.600 -> 12:01.160] One thing that I've learned more than anything else [12:01.160 -> 12:03.320] over the last probably five or six years, [12:03.320 -> 12:04.200] more than anything else, [12:04.200 -> 12:07.880] is you've got layers of coaching and understanding [12:08.480 -> 12:12.560] that you put in over a period of time and that they'll add to each other if [12:12.560 -> 12:14.720] you can move them in the right way. [12:15.120 -> 12:18.440] So I think a perfect example to me is where you say it's selfless, [12:18.440 -> 12:19.680] there's a degree of selflessness. [12:19.840 -> 12:22.160] Yes, there is, but there also isn't. [12:22.880 -> 12:25.840] And I think it's explaining this to those players [12:25.840 -> 12:28.600] who maybe don't get it, because as I said to you, [12:28.600 -> 12:30.320] yes, a player may not quite agree [12:30.320 -> 12:31.760] with a direction of travel. [12:31.760 -> 12:33.600] You have this in a lot of circumstances [12:33.600 -> 12:35.800] we have with people with strong beliefs, [12:35.800 -> 12:39.040] strong identities, strong abilities. [12:39.040 -> 12:41.120] But once they actually do start to get their heads [12:41.120 -> 12:46.400] around the fact that that success for them individually will largely [12:46.400 -> 12:50.640] come based on a success of the group or a certainly an appearance that the group is [12:50.640 -> 12:54.760] successful and dynamic together. I think then you start to break down it because it doesn't [12:54.760 -> 12:59.320] become selfless then it actually becomes quite weirdly almost selfish because you, you can [12:59.320 -> 13:03.360] get that person suddenly, Oh, actually, if I do this bit really well for the team in [13:03.360 -> 13:06.560] the way I should, the better I do it, the more successful we are. [13:06.560 -> 13:09.360] People are going to talk about me in a more obvious way. [13:09.360 -> 13:12.400] People are going to want to reward me in a more obvious way. [13:12.400 -> 13:15.880] I'm actually going to benefit from all the good things [13:15.880 -> 13:17.000] that come, all the trappings, [13:17.000 -> 13:19.400] all the things that come with success, [13:19.400 -> 13:21.840] all the things that other people were looking and going, [13:21.840 -> 13:23.840] well, why is that team doing so well? [13:23.840 -> 13:25.660] That player must really be contributing. [13:25.660 -> 13:27.280] He must be a, you know, [13:27.280 -> 13:30.000] some guys who probably aren't what you'd describe as leaders [13:30.000 -> 13:32.040] from the outside will get talked about as leaders [13:32.040 -> 13:34.160] and they'll get talked about as people driving the culture. [13:34.160 -> 13:35.520] And actually what they're doing is [13:35.520 -> 13:37.840] they're just really good followers. [13:37.840 -> 13:40.640] You know, they're really powerfully, really good followers. [13:40.640 -> 13:43.320] And so you can see that the outside perception [13:43.320 -> 13:47.800] can actually be very, very positive for people who just actually [13:47.880 -> 13:52.400] twig that being an important part of being aligned in the [13:52.400 -> 13:56.760] team is what will make you actually more successful. That [13:56.760 -> 13:58.480] can actually use something because that could be quite so [13:58.480 -> 14:00.520] if you do in a very, very good way, some people say quite [14:00.520 -> 14:03.200] actually quite selfish, because you're, you're actually focused [14:03.200 -> 14:05.020] on actually this will have a really [14:05.020 -> 14:06.560] positive and strong outcome for me. [14:07.140 -> 14:09.480] And when you align the two, those individuals who are, [14:09.840 -> 14:11.920] who really understand there's a positive outcome for them, [14:12.260 -> 14:14.460] then that's when you become that group who can have a real [14:14.460 -> 14:16.240] positive impact together as well. [14:16.600 -> 14:19.880] So can you give us some of the tips and tricks that you'd adopt? [14:19.880 -> 14:22.700] So I'll give you an example to illustrate where I'm going with this. [14:22.700 -> 14:28.000] I, a friend of mine is a Brett Hodgson, y cyfarwyddwr Hull yn y Liga Rugby, [14:28.000 -> 14:30.000] un o'r pethau sydd yn ei wneud yn y gynulliad yw, [14:30.000 -> 14:32.000] maen nhw'n cael rhaid, pan mae gennych chi ddrin, [14:32.000 -> 14:35.000] er enghraifft, rydych chi'n rhoi'r drin i'w cymdeithas [14:35.000 -> 14:36.000] cyn i chi'w cymryd ar eich hun. [14:36.000 -> 14:39.000] Ac mae'r syniad o'ch gael i chi ddeall [14:39.000 -> 14:41.000] y bydd angen i chi edrych ar eich cymdeithas [14:41.000 -> 14:43.000] cyn i chi eich hun o'ch ddiddorol. [14:43.000 -> 14:48.760] A allwch chi ddangos rhai o'r cymdeithasau a'r tipau a'r tricau y gallech chi'n eu cymryd before your own self-interest. Can you give us some of the examples of the tips and tricks that you might adopt to embed that within that culture [14:48.760 -> 14:49.960] down in Exeter? [14:49.960 -> 14:50.960] There are quite a lot, [14:50.960 -> 14:52.880] and it doesn't take a lot of research [14:52.880 -> 14:53.840] if you're looking for them, [14:53.840 -> 14:55.560] quite a lot of things like [14:55.560 -> 14:58.080] kind of old black and white war films, [14:58.080 -> 15:02.280] or with a variety of forces and a variety of messages. [15:02.280 -> 15:03.880] But if you actually do a bit of digging [15:03.880 -> 15:09.440] and you actually watch a few, so many of them, especially the ones that were built, that were made not long [15:09.440 -> 15:14.040] after the war, so they would like try to depict areas of battle or arenas of things that were [15:14.040 -> 15:19.520] going on. So many of them have got quite a strong message running through them, where [15:19.520 -> 15:24.120] the commanding officer or the guy who's in charge or however, all his men love him, they [15:24.120 -> 15:25.360] think he's amazing. But really him, they think he's amazing, [15:25.360 -> 15:29.840] but really, and they think he's amazing because actually he's, he's, he's thinking he's trying [15:29.840 -> 15:35.440] to keep them alive. So he's making excuses as to why they shouldn't go on a mission or why they [15:35.440 -> 15:39.760] shouldn't jump in their plane or what, why it is. And, and the guys love him because they think he's [15:39.760 -> 15:46.000] protecting them. And, and then they get seen as a, seen as an area of the force [15:46.000 -> 15:47.080] that's not doing very well. [15:47.080 -> 15:48.960] They're not achieving their aims. [15:48.960 -> 15:51.120] People are getting killed or whatever. [15:51.120 -> 15:54.720] And a new guy comes in in command and they all hate him. [15:54.720 -> 15:55.560] Cause what does he do? [15:55.560 -> 15:56.380] He's a taskmaster. [15:56.380 -> 15:58.760] He drives them, he drills them, he trains them. [15:58.760 -> 16:01.880] He makes sure that they have very high standards [16:01.880 -> 16:03.600] and they're all there for the first part of the day. [16:03.600 -> 16:07.600] I'm going, this guy's awful. And of course of course what actually what they realize though over the course of the [16:07.600 -> 16:13.680] outcome of the film is the guy who cares the most is the guy who drills them, drives them, [16:13.680 -> 16:18.960] trains them, gets them working hard together, gets them working as a unit because you're more [16:18.960 -> 16:23.520] likely to succeed or be successful in a war environment if you know what you're doing and [16:23.520 -> 16:25.200] you all have responsibilities [16:25.200 -> 16:26.560] and you're all there for each other [16:26.560 -> 16:28.200] and the timing's all aligned. [16:28.200 -> 16:30.160] And in an Air Force situation, [16:30.160 -> 16:32.080] you call it flying in formation. [16:32.080 -> 16:34.420] World War II bombers, you fly in formation, [16:34.420 -> 16:36.120] you cover each other with your guns. [16:36.120 -> 16:39.560] If one guy's not in formation, everybody's weaker. [16:39.560 -> 16:41.000] And these environments, [16:41.000 -> 16:43.340] I use quite a lot of films and clips [16:43.340 -> 16:46.920] just to get, especially when you think younger guys now [16:46.920 -> 16:48.160] who are coming into our team, [16:48.160 -> 16:50.320] they're about the age of most of the characters [16:50.320 -> 16:51.640] are in those kind of war films [16:51.640 -> 16:54.280] that being like 18 to 21, 22. [16:54.280 -> 16:58.080] Now for those guys, success meant staying alive for a day [16:58.080 -> 16:59.460] or staying alive for a mission [16:59.460 -> 17:01.040] or staying alive for a period of war. [17:01.040 -> 17:02.600] For our guys, I say to them, [17:02.600 -> 17:04.960] you can't compare it, it's about you winning a game of rugby. [17:04.960 -> 17:08.640] But these things are exactly the same. If you commit to your part, [17:08.640 -> 17:14.080] your role, your piece in the formation, we're all protected. We're all better. We're all stronger [17:14.080 -> 17:19.040] together. The minute you kind of want to decide to fly out of formation or go off on your own, [17:19.040 -> 17:24.080] we all become a bit weaker. You become vulnerable and we become weaker. So I try and use quite a [17:24.080 -> 17:26.540] lot of things that particularly people nowadays will [17:26.540 -> 17:30.140] look at. And you know, as I do, a lot of the young people now, [17:30.180 -> 17:33.780] it's all about video clips and things they can see and things they can hear and [17:33.780 -> 17:35.100] things they can buy into. [17:35.100 -> 17:40.060] So I try and use that repeat message of any opportunity you get to [17:40.060 -> 17:43.380] show where you can be stronger and safer and more resilient together. [17:44.420 -> 17:45.600] That's what I try and do. I [17:45.600 -> 17:50.560] just try and show them in a different environment what it looks like. And for obvious reasons, [17:50.560 -> 17:55.360] the military environment is a very, very important one, because you actually protect each other by [17:55.360 -> 17:59.760] being pretty tough on each other. And that's what you need in quite a high performing sports [17:59.760 -> 18:03.520] situation as well. It's a very interesting conversation this about everyone going in [18:03.520 -> 18:05.760] the same direction, Rob. [18:05.760 -> 18:10.360] And coming back to the title of our conversation, building resilience to deal with stress, I'd [18:10.360 -> 18:15.520] be really interested to know what this is like for you to operate in, because when you [18:15.520 -> 18:20.160] were a player and you played for the Chiefs for 14 years, captained them for a decade, [18:20.160 -> 18:24.100] you were part of that formation of planes flying in the same direction. [18:24.100 -> 18:28.160] Now you're not. You're kind of a plane, maybe over here, saying like, [18:28.160 -> 18:32.160] you're not quite in the right direction, you need to go fly a bit closer, you further away. [18:32.160 -> 18:36.160] You're kind of in charge. So it's a... you're part of it, but you're separate from it. [18:36.880 -> 18:41.600] How hard is that for you to deal with, from being central to it, to being in charge? [18:41.600 -> 18:45.200] Toby Davis I don't want to think the hardest thing is to keep [18:45.200 -> 18:49.160] saying to the same group of people, almost this [18:49.160 -> 18:51.800] this same message, because it's so true. There isn't [18:51.800 -> 18:54.080] really a there isn't really an easy way out of it. [18:54.360 -> 18:58.280] So rugby now, top line rugby is a massively physical [18:58.280 -> 19:00.320] sport. So personally, I don't mind telling you the [19:00.320 -> 19:02.560] hardest thing for me is to keep saying to these guys, [19:02.920 -> 19:07.400] right, well, actually, for us, I that flying in formation might mean for 20 minutes, [19:07.400 -> 19:08.880] there's going to be a lot of tough carries out there. [19:09.280 -> 19:11.680] Everyone's full of energy. What is success for you? [19:11.880 -> 19:13.520] What success for you today is going to be, [19:13.960 -> 19:16.520] you're going to batter yourself around for 20 minutes and it's going to hurt. [19:17.120 -> 19:18.960] And there's going to be some compromise out there. [19:18.960 -> 19:21.040] There's going to be some injuries. It's going to be tough. [19:21.640 -> 19:27.680] And so I think that's the tough bit is that tough bit is repeatedly saying the same message about how hard you actually have to work to actually make all [19:27.680 -> 19:31.600] this work. And that is the bit because I think when you're a captain and you're part of the team [19:31.600 -> 19:34.720] and you go out there and you can look at each other and go, this is going to be tough today, [19:34.720 -> 19:38.160] guys. Whatever happens, we're going to have to wear them down. We're going to go through a bit [19:38.160 -> 19:41.920] of some hard times out there. When you're in there and you're kind of in the trenches fighting [19:41.920 -> 19:48.320] together, it is a little easier. And I actually think that that is one of the toughest parts and it's one of the toughest [19:48.320 -> 19:52.880] parts of leadership is being able to go, I want you to go out there and really almost sacrifice [19:52.880 -> 19:58.240] yourself. And I'll be sat near what say watching like in the warm and we'll catch up again [19:58.240 -> 20:01.680] afterwards. But I think that that's just one of those things. That's one of those character traits [20:01.680 -> 20:07.260] you need to be comfortable doing because again, but I think you find comfort in yourself, you deal with your own resilience, your own [20:07.260 -> 20:11.540] stress by going, well, actually, but I still know this is for the good of this player. [20:11.540 -> 20:14.940] This guy wants a good contract. If he wants to be successful, if he wants international [20:14.940 -> 20:18.780] honours, if he wants to be the player he wants to be and have the success he wants to be, [20:18.780 -> 20:22.060] these are the things he's going to have to commit to doing. And I think that's how you [20:22.060 -> 20:26.560] can keep rounding it back. It's all little parts, little segments of the same circle, [20:26.560 -> 20:28.160] that you keep going around and revisiting. [20:28.160 -> 20:29.560] What do you have to do? [20:29.560 -> 20:31.820] And where does that lead to the success back at the top? [20:31.820 -> 20:32.720] And then what do you have to do? [20:32.720 -> 20:33.760] And how does that lead back to something? [20:33.760 -> 20:36.520] And I think we're all have a slightly different role [20:36.520 -> 20:38.800] to play on that pathway. [20:38.800 -> 20:41.560] And what was it, Rob, that built your resilience [20:41.560 -> 20:44.920] to be able to stand there, keep having those conversations, [20:44.920 -> 20:46.200] keep sipping that coffee in the warm [20:46.200 -> 20:48.000] while the game is going on, [20:48.000 -> 20:49.920] without feeling that you're being judged by the players, [20:49.920 -> 20:51.720] or maybe feeling that maybe you are being judged, [20:51.720 -> 20:53.800] but you have the resilience to deal with that. [20:53.800 -> 20:54.640] You know, the media, [20:54.640 -> 20:56.800] all the other things that come with your role, [20:56.800 -> 20:59.440] because being the captain of a rugby team [20:59.440 -> 21:01.720] doesn't necessarily give you the resilience [21:01.720 -> 21:03.720] to be a really good director of rugby. [21:03.720 -> 21:06.800] So where do you think you learned the resilience for your specific role now? [21:07.400 -> 21:08.040] It's hard to say. [21:08.040 -> 21:11.120] I mean, if there's any director of rugby who ever sits there and watching and [21:11.120 -> 21:14.160] doesn't feel they're being judged by virtually everybody, including the team [21:14.160 -> 21:18.200] and everybody who's in this ground, I'd be amazed because they, they must be [21:18.200 -> 21:19.960] able to go to go home and sleep really well at night. [21:19.960 -> 21:21.040] I feel quite envious of them. [21:21.040 -> 21:29.600] But I think being a captain of the side in the time I played did help me because it's different to being a captain of the full-time professional [21:29.600 -> 21:34.780] side now where you do make a few decisions, but there's so much other input happening [21:34.780 -> 21:40.000] around you. I mean, back when I started as captain, you were still involved in selection [21:40.000 -> 21:43.560] and still involved in elements of training and how the game was going to be played and [21:43.560 -> 21:48.840] what you're going to do. And you were the key speaker after end of season dinners [21:48.840 -> 21:52.660] and the such like. So I think those kinds of things, they prepare you in a slightly [21:52.660 -> 21:59.140] different way because you, you're kind of a semi-player coach and an off-field persona [21:59.140 -> 22:04.120] all wrapped into one. And I think that can start the process. And then I was really fortunate [22:04.120 -> 22:07.140] when I started coaching. And if anybody ever says to me, asked me [22:07.140 -> 22:09.460] about a coaching pathway and how they should [22:09.460 -> 22:12.300] start, I started coaching at university. [22:12.720 -> 22:15.480] And I think those environments really help [22:15.480 -> 22:17.520] you because you're there, you're there working [22:17.520 -> 22:19.280] with players who have a great deal of resilience [22:19.280 -> 22:22.680] as well, because you turn up and the guys who [22:22.680 -> 22:24.980] turn up there on their first day, as freshers on [22:24.980 -> 22:25.760] their first day, they turners on their first day, [22:25.760 -> 22:28.560] they turn up because they want to be part of something, they want to be part of something, [22:28.560 -> 22:32.480] they want to be part of a team, it's that they're doing it off their own back, there's no financial [22:32.480 -> 22:35.040] reward there, they're doing it because they want to be part of something, they want to be part of [22:35.040 -> 22:39.120] something bigger than themselves and you're there and you help them guide that and that's a very [22:39.120 -> 22:44.080] rewarding side of it and I think really it's no different. It might feel like it when you get to [22:44.080 -> 22:50.160] a professional level but the truth is it is still kind of the same. You're there to guide these guys [22:50.160 -> 22:53.240] who want to be part of something and they want to achieve things themselves. Yes. And [22:53.240 -> 22:56.800] they want to achieve things together. And I think you kind of rationalize it by saying, [22:56.800 -> 23:00.640] well, these guys want to be here and it's my job to try and help them do it in the most [23:00.640 -> 23:04.080] successful way possible. And yes, you're going to be judged and yes, they'll judge you and [23:04.080 -> 23:07.040] they should judge you. But I think as long as you can, you can always kind [23:07.040 -> 23:10.400] of say to yourself, well, yeah, I'm genuinely thinking we are in the right direction. This [23:10.400 -> 23:14.720] is a way for these people to be successful. I think you can certainly rationalise it with yourself. [23:14.720 -> 23:18.320] And that's the important thing at the end of the day, isn't it? Get to the end of the day and go, [23:18.320 -> 23:21.280] I've done what I can do today. I've done the right thing. And I think that's probably the [23:21.280 -> 23:34.000] way I deal with it. Do you find leadership lonely, Rob? Yes and no, probably a little less now than I did, but that probably comes from having that element of a bit of, I suppose, what would you call it, credit in the bank, maybe? [23:34.000 -> 23:48.680] Maybe that's the way of doing it in that I've had an element of success now as a leader, which probably is allowing me over the last three or four years to definitely share roles and responsibilities a little bit more. I've got a very good coaching staff [23:48.680 -> 23:53.760] in the club. We've been together for a long time. We've got a lot of trust amongst ourselves. [23:53.760 -> 23:58.200] And I still think our biggest strength is that we can work our way back to alignment [23:58.200 -> 24:04.520] very well. We will argue and disagree and in the course of a half hour, an hour or even [24:04.520 -> 24:05.320] longer discussion [24:05.320 -> 24:09.400] about where we're going, how we're playing, where the season's going, how a particular [24:09.400 -> 24:14.600] game went, we can really have some varied ideas on it. But we always manage to work [24:14.600 -> 24:20.240] our way back into that kind of alignment process of how we're moving forward. And I think that's [24:20.240 -> 24:25.560] allowed it to become a little bit more comfortable. I think before then I'd have said, yeah, well, it was pretty lonely because [24:25.840 -> 24:30.640] ultimately you are making the end decisions that, especially when we were [24:30.640 -> 24:32.880] first in the premiership, you know, the difference between us being in the [24:32.880 -> 24:35.160] premiership or being relegated is massive. [24:35.160 -> 24:40.000] The gap is that that last step between the championship and the premiership [24:40.000 -> 24:44.720] is such a big one now that I think it's, you know, you are looking around and [24:44.720 -> 24:46.440] seeing tens of people [24:46.440 -> 24:48.600] who would lose jobs, lose livelihoods, [24:48.600 -> 24:51.320] have to move into different areas, [24:51.320 -> 24:53.800] would not be able to carry on in the roles [24:53.800 -> 24:55.560] with the way they're doing their family responsibilities, [24:55.560 -> 24:57.760] mortgages, when you look at it like that, [24:57.760 -> 25:00.240] you know, that was a big thing. [25:00.240 -> 25:02.600] I think now we're a lot more established. [25:02.600 -> 25:05.320] So how did you learn to cope with that loneliness [25:05.320 -> 25:07.960] and to carry such a heavy burden? [25:07.960 -> 25:08.800] I mean, at the end of the day, [25:08.800 -> 25:10.600] I've got a very supportive family. [25:10.600 -> 25:15.120] I mean, I've been with my wife since I was 16, she was 17. [25:15.120 -> 25:17.880] We've been married for 30 years in June. [25:17.880 -> 25:21.680] So I've always been able to talk to her about it. [25:21.680 -> 25:23.200] And I'm from a farming background [25:23.200 -> 25:25.240] and I still live here on the farm. [25:25.240 -> 25:29.040] And I do think that it gives you a bit of stoicism [25:29.040 -> 25:31.280] that you can get on with things. [25:31.280 -> 25:32.840] You know, I say to other people, [25:32.840 -> 25:34.760] they say, well, how's being a farmer [25:34.760 -> 25:36.680] and how's it affected various things? [25:36.680 -> 25:38.940] And one of the big things I always say to them is [25:38.940 -> 25:40.460] there are loads of things you do on a farm [25:40.460 -> 25:42.080] and any farmer will tell you this. [25:42.080 -> 25:44.140] And you can look in a field sometimes [25:44.140 -> 25:48.380] and it's covered in square bales of hay. We used to do square bales of hay, which you all need [25:48.380 -> 25:51.580] to be picking up by hand. And you can look in a big field and you can see these thousands [25:51.580 -> 25:54.460] of bales just sitting there and you know, they've all got to get picked up before it [25:54.460 -> 25:58.300] rains and you know, they've all got to get back, but get put in the shed before it rains. [25:58.300 -> 26:01.860] And you look at it and you go, we'll never finish this. But you know what you do, you [26:01.860 -> 26:07.360] drive in there with a tractor and trailer and you start chucking them on one at a time. And then a few days later, it's done. [26:07.360 -> 26:09.360] And that to me is very much the way [26:09.360 -> 26:11.400] to look at most things in life. [26:11.400 -> 26:13.200] There's a lot of things that look quite daunting [26:13.200 -> 26:16.920] and look semi-impossible or this will never get done. [26:16.920 -> 26:18.080] And guess what? [26:18.080 -> 26:20.320] You take your first step, you pick up your first bale of hay [26:20.320 -> 26:23.000] and you look around and it's done, isn't it? [26:23.000 -> 26:26.000] And I think that's probably how I deal with most things, [26:26.000 -> 26:27.640] is today hasn't gone so well, [26:27.640 -> 26:29.900] but we've got tomorrow and we've got the next day. [26:29.900 -> 26:32.040] And if we go that one hard, the job will get finished. [26:32.040 -> 26:33.800] And that's probably been a mantra [26:33.800 -> 26:35.520] around the club for a long time. [26:35.520 -> 26:37.120] One of the things that often fascinates me [26:37.120 -> 26:40.460] is that I've never met anyone that needs to be resilient [26:40.460 -> 26:42.640] in a culture where they're treated with kindness [26:42.640 -> 26:44.220] and decency and empathy. [26:44.220 -> 26:46.440] I've met people that need to be resilient [26:46.440 -> 26:48.600] when you're being castigated [26:48.600 -> 26:51.440] or you're working with people that are unkind. [26:51.440 -> 26:54.080] So how have you fostered a culture where, [26:54.080 -> 26:57.680] of psychological safety, where people can come in, [26:57.680 -> 26:58.600] they can take risks, [26:58.600 -> 27:01.780] they can play the expansive rugby that you demand, [27:01.780 -> 27:04.240] and they're not afraid of making mistakes? [27:04.240 -> 27:06.400] It's one of the most talked about areas, isn't it, [27:06.400 -> 27:08.600] of kind of sport around this, [27:08.600 -> 27:11.120] maximizing yourself without having a fear of mistakes. [27:11.120 -> 27:14.440] And I think they often get talked about in the wrong way. [27:14.440 -> 27:16.080] I'm not expecting everybody to agree with this [27:16.080 -> 27:20.800] on the risk-taking element of sport or how you do things. [27:20.800 -> 27:23.760] One of the worst things that I've kind of hear [27:23.760 -> 27:25.200] is when I hear people go, [27:25.200 -> 27:26.640] I just thought I'd give it a go, [27:26.640 -> 27:29.040] or yeah, it's important to just give it a go [27:29.040 -> 27:30.040] or that kind of thing, [27:30.040 -> 27:33.480] because that to me is almost sounds the opposite [27:33.480 -> 27:36.800] of a high performing environment, if I'm honest with you. [27:36.800 -> 27:39.960] So when I say that, I mean, [27:39.960 -> 27:44.120] there's no way really a top sportsman [27:44.120 -> 27:46.440] should give something a go [27:46.440 -> 27:48.240] that they don't know that they can do. [27:48.240 -> 27:53.080] Now that's different to putting a skill in place [27:53.080 -> 27:55.640] that you have got, that you have practiced [27:55.640 -> 27:57.080] and you've worked at, [27:57.080 -> 27:59.720] and you know you're capable of achieving, [27:59.720 -> 28:01.640] because then it becomes about allowing yourself [28:01.640 -> 28:06.860] to use your talents and use your abilities. That's different. I think allowing [28:06.860 -> 28:10.380] yourself at the right time, that is that is a resilience under [28:10.380 -> 28:15.340] pressure. But I think that has to come from the armour you have [28:15.340 -> 28:20.340] built by working hard and by practising and, and knowing and [28:20.340 -> 28:23.940] creating the ability inside you. And I think one of the key times [28:23.940 -> 28:26.040] you'll see this is, [28:26.040 -> 28:28.560] I would say things like golf and tennis [28:28.560 -> 28:30.320] are really good examples of this. [28:30.320 -> 28:33.400] So a top professional tennis player [28:33.400 -> 28:35.280] will have spent hours and hours and hours, [28:35.280 -> 28:37.240] days, years of their life, [28:37.240 -> 28:41.680] practicing how they hit a very basic stroke, a forehand. [28:41.680 -> 28:44.400] And they will practice for hours and repeatedly [28:44.400 -> 28:45.320] and repeatedly, even the very [28:45.320 -> 28:49.120] top professionals, when you watch them, they don't just go out and play a game of tennis [28:49.120 -> 28:51.380] and they'll say, I've done, I've practiced well today. [28:51.380 -> 28:57.000] They might hit 50 or a hundred and they know that in a rally under pressure, that ball [28:57.000 -> 28:58.200] needs to be landing near a line. [28:58.200 -> 29:01.560] It needs to be staying low over the net and needs to be getting to one side of the court [29:01.560 -> 29:02.920] or the other. [29:02.920 -> 29:05.240] So they know they've got the ability to do it. [29:05.600 -> 29:10.080] Now then in the game, what happens is you can be in a game, you can get to a [29:10.080 -> 29:13.960] really important point, you can just get the ball back over the net again, or you [29:13.960 -> 29:17.080] can let yourself keep making those shots you know you're capable of. [29:17.280 -> 29:23.320] So you kind of let that ability you have in you take over and make those shots. [29:23.440 -> 29:25.120] So you go line to line just over the net, [29:25.120 -> 29:26.520] puts the opposition under more pressure. [29:26.520 -> 29:28.480] That's what ultimately forces mistake. [29:28.480 -> 29:32.080] The difference is being able to let yourself go [29:32.080 -> 29:34.960] and let yourself express your talents and your abilities, [29:34.960 -> 29:37.120] not just, I'll give it a go. [29:37.120 -> 29:38.280] Because if you're just hitting a line [29:38.280 -> 29:40.600] because you've given it a go, that's not good play. [29:40.600 -> 29:41.720] That's luck. [29:41.720 -> 29:44.120] And it takes a bravery and resilience to do it, [29:44.120 -> 29:44.960] doesn't it? [29:44.960 -> 29:47.280] Because you have to be willing to fail [29:47.280 -> 29:49.520] and know that if you play the riskier game, [29:49.520 -> 29:50.800] the rewards are greater, [29:50.800 -> 29:53.480] but the failure is much more apparent [29:53.480 -> 29:55.080] and much closer to you, doesn't it? [29:55.080 -> 29:57.800] I think it depends again, you see, because is it risky? [29:57.800 -> 30:01.320] So that tennis player, for him to win or lose the game, [30:01.320 -> 30:03.520] is it riskier him playing the good shots [30:03.520 -> 30:06.160] he knows he's capable of, than maybe the odd occasion he goes over the line? Or is it riskier him playing the good shots he knows he's capable of, then maybe the odd occasion [30:06.160 -> 30:09.120] he goes over the line, or is it riskier him just putting the [30:09.120 -> 30:11.880] ball back over the net, and then the opposition absolutely [30:11.880 -> 30:13.880] smashing him on back that he can't play? It's not really [30:13.880 -> 30:17.720] risky. It's once everybody starts to get that part of it, [30:18.000 -> 30:21.040] because you're actually allowing yourself to be successful. Now, [30:21.200 -> 30:24.960] what I would say is where the resilience comes into this, is [30:24.960 -> 30:25.920] your ability to [30:25.920 -> 30:31.760] get to that level where you let yourself go means you actually have to commit everything to the game, [30:31.760 -> 30:35.120] the game you're involved in, you have to be prepared to commit everything to it. If you [30:35.120 -> 30:40.320] commit everything to something and you lose, that's heartbreaking because you sit there afterwards and [30:40.320 -> 30:45.640] you go, I don't know if I could have done any more today, I've lost. And, and it's the ability to [30:45.640 -> 30:48.800] actually prepare to get go to that level as often as [30:48.800 -> 30:52.000] possible that really moves you on. Because if you can [30:52.000 -> 30:54.560] then repeat that the next time, you will actually [30:54.560 -> 30:57.640] already be able to deal with the scenario a little bit [30:57.640 -> 31:00.720] better. And then again, and then again, and so you'll [31:00.720 -> 31:02.600] slowly be able to claim the climb the ladder of [31:02.600 -> 31:06.320] performance, because you are committing everything to it, [31:06.320 -> 31:07.920] whether you win or lose. [31:07.920 -> 31:10.320] It's very difficult, especially in modern society, [31:10.320 -> 31:12.480] for people to actually go that far, [31:12.480 -> 31:13.320] but that's what you have to do. [31:13.320 -> 31:14.320] You have to do that again, don't you? [31:14.320 -> 31:16.000] You have to do that again, and that's how you get better. [31:16.000 -> 31:17.140] If you're always limiting yourself, [31:17.140 -> 31:18.440] you're never going to reach your potential. [31:18.440 -> 31:19.480] You're never going to actually go there. [31:19.480 -> 31:21.680] You've got to actually try and be the best you can be [31:21.680 -> 31:23.520] in every performance. [31:23.520 -> 31:25.280] Hey, listen, I'm sorry to interrupt this episode. [31:25.280 -> 31:26.120] I'm sure you'll agree. [31:26.120 -> 31:27.600] It's a great conversation, [31:27.600 -> 31:29.200] but I just want to say, first of all, [31:29.200 -> 31:31.560] thanks for listening to the Gallagher Leadership Series [31:31.560 -> 31:33.520] with the High Performance Podcast. [31:33.520 -> 31:36.400] But I also want to mention that I'm about to play you a clip [31:36.400 -> 31:39.840] of Ben Earl talking about Owen Farrell [31:39.840 -> 31:42.320] from Gallagher's Rivals Together series. [31:42.320 -> 31:43.160] It's really cool. [31:43.160 -> 31:44.800] Have a listen to this. [31:44.800 -> 31:47.600] It's someone we probably both know very well is Owen. [31:47.600 -> 31:48.440] Yeah. [31:48.440 -> 31:49.920] And I'd say he's in that category. [31:49.920 -> 31:52.640] He doesn't let you have a bad training session, does he? [31:52.640 -> 31:53.760] Because the standards. [31:53.760 -> 31:55.000] If you're a couple of percent off, [31:55.000 -> 31:57.200] you're firstly hearing about it, [31:57.200 -> 31:58.440] even if you're not aware about it, [31:58.440 -> 32:01.360] then like, it definitely raises the standard. [32:02.360 -> 32:04.080] I mean, yeah, like everyone talks about, [32:04.080 -> 32:07.840] obviously he's been out injured for a couple of weeks with us, the standard of training when he [32:07.840 -> 32:13.760] comes back is like, is mental, it's night and day and that's just not like that [32:13.760 -> 32:18.840] anyone else is like not good enough, it's just that he's wired differently in [32:18.840 -> 32:22.880] that regard, it's that he wants the best and he'll only accept the best and that [32:22.880 -> 32:25.680] is so motivating for you as a [32:25.680 -> 32:29.540] teammate but also for someone for me to learn off. [32:29.540 -> 32:33.400] So if you want to hear more of that kind of insights from the likes of Danny Care, [32:33.400 -> 32:38.240] Freddie Burns, Beno Abano on their own leadership journeys in the Gallagher [32:38.240 -> 32:41.660] Premiership then just head to Gallagher's YouTube channel where you can watch all [32:41.660 -> 32:45.520] the episodes and I'll tell you what I'll also put a link to all their episodes [32:45.520 -> 32:47.020] in our show notes as well. [32:48.520 -> 32:50.040] So take us into a dressing room [32:50.040 -> 32:51.600] after a Premiership final then, [32:51.600 -> 32:54.240] where your players have given everything [32:54.240 -> 32:56.880] as did happen on a number of occasions, Rob, [32:56.880 -> 33:00.200] and yet they've still lost the game. [33:00.200 -> 33:03.760] How do you remind them of those messages [33:03.760 -> 33:08.000] and then give them the resilience to come back stronger the season after? [33:08.000 -> 33:11.600] Now the message is a little easier for me than probably the first time it happened, [33:11.600 -> 33:19.600] because now there's guys there, A, who have been involved themselves or have seen it historically by knowing what our results have been, [33:19.600 -> 33:29.360] that we've lost finals and come back and won the following year or won two years later. And that's when you can start to talk about that level of performance and going out there [33:29.360 -> 33:31.280] in that environment and letting it all out. [33:31.280 -> 33:35.580] That's been one of the crucial steps for you to maybe be in a winning trophy in the future. [33:35.580 -> 33:36.960] You've got to address it like that. [33:36.960 -> 33:42.120] The first year it was also, it was a different situation because then I could tell them, [33:42.120 -> 33:44.200] guys, we needed the experience of this. [33:44.200 -> 33:46.600] I don't think we had a person in the room who had been in a [33:46.600 -> 33:50.080] Premiership, even been in a Premiership semi-final, then on a Premiership final. [33:50.440 -> 33:53.400] And so having that experience and we won the next year. [33:53.560 -> 33:55.440] I think the year we were first in the Premiership final was the first year [33:55.440 -> 33:57.080] we'd been in the top four of the Premiership. [33:57.480 -> 34:00.320] It was the first year we'd been in a semi-final and obviously it was certainly [34:00.320 -> 34:01.480] the first year we'd been in a final. [34:02.000 -> 34:05.680] And we needed those experiences and we needed that. [34:05.680 -> 34:08.320] And we needed to understand what it would feel like [34:08.320 -> 34:10.480] and what we could do better the next time. [34:10.480 -> 34:11.760] And I think you can talk a lot like that. [34:11.760 -> 34:12.840] And I think you need to remember, [34:12.840 -> 34:14.360] if you were kind of talking in an environment [34:14.360 -> 34:15.200] where you're always saying, [34:15.200 -> 34:17.320] look, we're going to go through a bit of heartbreak, [34:17.320 -> 34:18.880] but we're going to expose ourselves to it [34:18.880 -> 34:21.440] because it will make us stronger and it'll make us better. [34:21.440 -> 34:24.240] Then it's just the biggest step on the path [34:24.240 -> 34:25.840] of that you're kind of aware of. [34:25.840 -> 34:29.040] And I still think it's the biggest part of development. [34:29.040 -> 34:31.800] The biggest thing is exposing yourself to failure, [34:31.800 -> 34:35.200] but not because it's okay to fail. [34:35.200 -> 34:37.320] Expose yourself to failure when it's not okay to fail [34:37.320 -> 34:38.800] and you want desperately to win. [34:38.800 -> 34:40.520] That's the best way to move forward. [34:40.520 -> 34:42.880] If you're accepting there's a chance you might lose [34:42.880 -> 34:44.880] or you might not commit fully to the game [34:44.880 -> 34:46.440] before you go into it, you're never going to going to, there's a chance you might lose, or you might not, you might not commit fully to the game before you go into it. You're never going [34:46.440 -> 34:50.200] to develop to the same extent as you can if you're going to put everything into it. But [34:50.200 -> 34:53.480] both physically and mentally, it's the same thing. [34:53.480 -> 34:54.480] Toby Van Kampen [34:54.480 -> 34:57.760] We actually hear quite often on this podcast, Rob, from people in your position, that the [34:57.760 -> 35:02.600] difference between the emotion of winning and the emotion of losing is actually relatively [35:02.600 -> 35:05.160] small. You get that great win and the next morning [35:05.160 -> 35:06.440] you've moved on anyway because you're ready [35:06.440 -> 35:07.940] for the next game. [35:07.940 -> 35:09.240] You get the defeat, you've moved on [35:09.240 -> 35:10.720] because you're ready for the next game. [35:10.720 -> 35:14.460] How do you go about explaining that to your players? [35:14.460 -> 35:16.960] Well, there's a very simple way of explaining it. [35:16.960 -> 35:19.720] I mean, we're involved in these kinds of games all the time. [35:19.720 -> 35:22.320] So a perfect example is you lose a game [35:22.320 -> 35:23.800] with the last kick of the game. [35:23.800 -> 35:25.160] There's a very simple way of explaining it [35:25.160 -> 35:26.240] because you can sit in the changing room [35:26.240 -> 35:28.920] and like you said, the difference between the emotion [35:28.920 -> 35:30.740] of winning and losing has been based, [35:30.740 -> 35:33.760] you could say, based on one kick. [35:33.760 -> 35:34.760] So you can sit there and go, [35:34.760 -> 35:37.000] right guys, for 79 minutes and 30 seconds, [35:37.000 -> 35:38.480] if we'd have done everything we'd done, [35:38.480 -> 35:41.460] as we'd done it, and that kick misses, [35:41.460 -> 35:43.600] we'd be sitting here now pretty pleased with the win. [35:43.600 -> 35:44.780] The only difference in the performance [35:44.780 -> 35:45.920] might be that kick. [35:45.920 -> 35:47.840] Doesn't hit the post, that kick's gone over. [35:47.840 -> 35:51.760] That's why you move on, because that's how close it can be. [35:51.760 -> 35:55.200] Now, obviously, you have to break down the game into way bigger parts than that, [35:55.200 -> 35:57.360] and you have to look when you talk to your players about it, right? [35:57.360 -> 35:59.840] But if we'd have improved A, B, C here, A, B, C here, [35:59.840 -> 36:01.440] it might never have come down to one kick. [36:01.440 -> 36:03.120] And that's how you move on. [36:03.120 -> 36:05.680] But actually, the line between winning and losing [36:05.680 -> 36:08.400] in some games is so small, [36:08.400 -> 36:11.400] and it creates such a big flip, as you say, emotionally, [36:11.400 -> 36:13.280] that as long as you talk about it and you're open about it [36:13.280 -> 36:14.760] and you express that to each other, [36:14.760 -> 36:16.360] you should be able to move on relatively quickly [36:16.360 -> 36:18.800] because what are you moving on for? [36:18.800 -> 36:20.720] You'd still have the same work-ons if you'd have won. [36:20.720 -> 36:22.680] If that kick misses, [36:22.680 -> 36:23.960] all the things you've done wrong in that game, [36:23.960 -> 36:24.960] you've still done wrong, [36:24.960 -> 36:26.560] and they all still need working on. If the kick misses, all the things you've done wrong in that game, you've still done wrong. And they all still need working on. [36:26.560 -> 36:28.360] If the kick goes over, [36:28.360 -> 36:29.240] they're all the same things. [36:29.240 -> 36:30.440] They all need the same amount of work on, [36:30.440 -> 36:31.680] don't they, to improve them. [36:31.680 -> 36:33.760] And I think as long as you can talk about it quite openly, [36:33.760 -> 36:36.800] it shouldn't be the hardest thing to get your head around. [36:36.800 -> 36:38.560] And do you think a healthy environment [36:38.560 -> 36:41.640] is one where we hugely celebrate our successes [36:41.640 -> 36:44.600] and we all go out and have a couple of nights on the drink [36:44.600 -> 36:46.000] or we party till all hours, but then if we're going to do that, when we get go out and have a couple of nights on the drink or we party till all hours. [36:46.000 -> 36:49.400] But then if we're going to do that, when we get defeated, we have to get low [36:49.400 -> 36:51.900] and we have to really suffer with a lot of introspection. [36:51.900 -> 36:54.700] Whereas a healthier environment, not just sport, but in life itself, [36:55.000 -> 36:58.200] one where we kind of avoid creating that roller coaster of emotions. [36:58.400 -> 37:00.400] I think you've come up with exactly the right words there, [37:00.400 -> 37:01.900] roller coaster of emotions. [37:02.200 -> 37:04.000] I remember when I first took the job, [37:04.300 -> 37:06.000] it was one of the first things that I [37:06.000 -> 37:07.520] talked to everybody about the players, [37:07.520 -> 37:10.440] the staff, club, even the supporters, [37:10.840 -> 37:12.000] that the most important thing when [37:12.000 -> 37:13.520] the premiership was to avoid exactly [37:13.520 -> 37:14.480] what you said, we're not going to be [37:14.480 -> 37:15.800] on a roller coaster of emotions. [37:15.800 -> 37:16.880] We're not going to say we're amazing [37:16.880 -> 37:17.760] when we win, and we're not going to [37:17.760 -> 37:18.840] say we're awful when we lose. [37:19.240 -> 37:20.960] And actually in our first season of [37:20.960 -> 37:22.240] premiership, we talked about enjoying [37:22.240 -> 37:24.280] every game, win or lose, because it [37:24.280 -> 37:28.960] was the first experience for a lot of our players that they were even in playing at that level of rugby. [37:28.960 -> 37:34.160] And so what you do is you go, right, well, we're not coming to the Premiership just to sit here and worry about it every week. [37:34.160 -> 37:39.320] And we're not going to try and eke out winning, you know, six, nine games and all this type of stuff, or see if we can scrape through. [37:39.320 -> 37:42.240] I remember even saying to the lads, this might be our one season, we're in the Premiership. [37:42.240 -> 37:45.960] We're going to enjoy every weekend. If we travel to Welford Road and play in front of a sellout crowd, we're going to [37:45.960 -> 37:46.280] love it. [37:46.760 -> 37:47.840] And we're going to do the same at Gloucester. [37:47.840 -> 37:50.320] We're going to do the same at Northampton, all the places the guys hadn't played. [37:51.080 -> 37:51.840] And that's what we did. [37:51.840 -> 37:53.520] And we avoided that rollercoaster. [37:53.560 -> 37:56.920] And I think, I think the other thing that's really important around resilience [37:57.160 -> 38:00.360] is you have to change, obviously you have to change and you have to adapt. [38:00.400 -> 38:03.800] You have to move forward, but you also have to have your own identity. [38:04.360 -> 38:05.640] And I think one of the key things we [38:05.640 -> 38:08.200] did in the Premiership when we first came into it was we didn't [38:08.200 -> 38:11.200] try and be everybody else. We took things out of every game [38:11.200 -> 38:13.600] and over periods of time we learned from other Premiership [38:13.600 -> 38:15.920] sides, but what we probably learned from other Premiership [38:15.920 -> 38:19.120] sides we instilled in us over probably seasons. We certainly [38:19.120 -> 38:22.480] didn't try and do it week by week. We had a bit of a style of [38:22.480 -> 38:26.480] how we wanted to play, had faith in it, tried to get better [38:26.480 -> 38:30.480] at doing it and used the games. We used the games as the biggest training session of the [38:30.480 -> 38:35.560] week. So we had a style about, we talked about how we wanted to play, but actually what we [38:35.560 -> 38:40.000] really drove with the players was your opportunity to really do this, to absolutely flat out [38:40.000 -> 38:44.000] and train the best is in the game. That allows you to then talk to your players about getting [38:44.000 -> 38:48.680] touches on the ball, be involved in the ball, in the game, because you would better, the [38:48.680 -> 38:51.660] more touches the ball you have, the more involved you are, that's how you get [38:51.660 -> 38:54.740] better, you're playing in a good environment against better players, all [38:54.740 -> 38:57.360] these things, you know, getting gamers, they'll all improve you. [38:57.800 -> 39:01.060] So all we ever really spoke to was where the upward path was, not [39:01.060 -> 39:02.380] really where the downward one was. [39:02.700 -> 39:05.520] And I think for the first two or three seasons, [39:05.520 -> 39:10.080] that established a level of faith and desire [39:10.080 -> 39:12.600] and an emotional stability within the club. [39:12.600 -> 39:14.560] And I think it's got to be in the club. [39:14.560 -> 39:16.820] You can talk about being a team and that's important, [39:16.820 -> 39:19.700] but that emotional stability needs to be across the club. [39:19.700 -> 39:22.640] Because if your MD is wandering into the changing room [39:22.640 -> 39:23.800] every five minutes screaming [39:23.800 -> 39:25.680] because you haven't won to go to rugby, [39:25.680 -> 39:28.240] there's no emotional stability in the club at all, is there? [39:28.240 -> 39:31.080] You know, and we've managed to have that [39:31.080 -> 39:32.600] in really good measure at the club [39:32.600 -> 39:34.120] for a number of years now. [39:34.120 -> 39:36.760] And I think that speaks fundamentally, Rob, [39:36.760 -> 39:38.800] to, you know, like how lots of clubs [39:38.800 -> 39:41.160] have these sort of slogans on the wall [39:41.160 -> 39:43.640] or their value statements, [39:43.640 -> 39:46.000] and then they don't always act up to it [39:46.000 -> 39:50.840] or use them as wallpaper rather than as guidance. [39:50.840 -> 39:52.900] I know that when you first came up, [39:52.900 -> 39:54.480] you had this idea of ACE, [39:54.480 -> 39:57.520] which was around attitude, commitment, and enjoyment. [39:57.520 -> 39:59.640] But what I think is more significant [39:59.640 -> 40:01.680] is the way that you've evolved those, [40:01.680 -> 40:02.720] where it became grace, [40:02.720 -> 40:06.960] which was about including graft and respect for others. And now you've had it, where it became Grace, which was about including [40:03.720 -> 40:09.200] graft and respect for others, and now [40:06.960 -> 40:11.760] you've had it, it's all about me. So [40:09.200 -> 40:14.640] there are three iterations of these [40:11.760 -> 40:17.680] values that really intrigued me. How did [40:14.640 -> 40:21.040] you come to them and how did you decide [40:17.680 -> 40:23.600] to update them and add things or refresh [40:21.040 -> 40:26.000] them? Without sounding like the old textbook [40:23.600 -> 40:25.040] coaching manual, [40:25.200 -> 40:28.520] obviously, you know, all of us who've done any kind of courses [40:28.520 -> 40:30.400] or all this kind of stuff, you know, you talk about like [40:30.400 -> 40:34.760] empowerment and players taking some element of responsibility [40:34.760 -> 40:39.040] for your, as you say, what your kind of culture, leadership [40:39.040 -> 40:43.000] issues will be, which I think is very good and very important. [40:43.040 -> 40:45.280] But I think good leadership needs to lead [40:45.280 -> 40:51.560] guide that and lead that a little bit as well. So what we did was we, I created like a questionnaire [40:51.560 -> 40:57.240] and it was based around just tell me your three, it was either three or four most important [40:57.240 -> 41:02.480] things, the things you want other people to see in as a team and the things you want to [41:02.480 -> 41:07.960] have in our team itself. So not just what was introspective and what we wanted to see in us as a team and the things you want to have in our team itself. So not just what was introspective and what we wanted to see inside, [41:08.200 -> 41:09.880] but how do we want to be viewed by other people? [41:09.880 -> 41:11.280] It's kind of like two questions. [41:11.960 -> 41:15.280] And what happened then is you, obviously you come up with a load of a list, [41:15.280 -> 41:18.920] you know, when it's 40, 50 people putting in there, even if it's three or four [41:18.920 -> 41:22.360] things, you come up with quite a big list of words, you know, you kind of [41:22.920 -> 41:26.920] relentless, dominant. There's a lot of the rugby words in there that you [41:26.920 -> 41:30.520] can see, you know, combative, physical, fast, tough, you know, [41:30.520 -> 41:34.160] all that kind of stuff. But then there's also an emotional level [41:34.160 -> 41:36.320] of words that come out. And that's where like an enjoy, [41:36.320 -> 41:39.040] enjoyment came out there three or four times with players, [41:39.720 -> 41:43.880] being emotional, or showing we care, all this type of stuff. So [41:43.880 -> 41:46.040] there was emotive things in there as well. [41:46.040 -> 41:47.620] And actually when I broke them down, [41:47.620 -> 41:49.440] what I did was I kind of put all the words [41:49.440 -> 41:51.200] that come back into three categories. [41:51.200 -> 41:53.560] And they were like, they were kind of physical [41:53.560 -> 41:55.520] and emotional category. [41:55.520 -> 41:58.480] And then there was a third one that was kind of like a, [41:58.480 -> 42:00.840] like a team category, a collective category [42:00.840 -> 42:01.680] of what it could be. [42:01.680 -> 42:03.240] So there's like almost like an individual thing, [42:03.240 -> 42:05.640] a collective thing, and an emotional thing. [42:06.400 -> 42:09.920] And that's where the ACE came from because actually they broke [42:09.920 -> 42:10.920] down into those categories. [42:10.920 -> 42:13.240] They broke down into a category that was all about your attitude. [42:13.240 -> 42:14.520] So your mental approach. [42:15.160 -> 42:17.840] There was a category that was all about your physical approach. [42:18.240 -> 42:20.400] And then there was a category that was about your emotional approach. [42:20.480 -> 42:24.800] So ACE really, attitude is your mental approach to the game. [42:24.800 -> 42:25.920] How are you going to approach it? [42:25.920 -> 42:27.880] What is the qualities you're going to show mentally [42:27.880 -> 42:29.800] and the emotion that people see it? [42:29.800 -> 42:31.880] And then the middle one was actually your preparation. [42:31.880 -> 42:33.760] What's your commitment to getting physically prepared? [42:33.760 -> 42:34.880] How hard are you going to work? [42:34.880 -> 42:36.240] Are you going to be on time? [42:36.240 -> 42:37.920] Are you going to maximise your weight sessions? [42:37.920 -> 42:39.640] You're going to maximise your running sessions? [42:39.640 -> 42:40.800] You know, are you going to eat and sleep, [42:40.800 -> 42:41.920] do all the right things? [42:41.920 -> 42:43.160] And then the third one, the enjoyment one, [42:43.160 -> 42:46.840] was that emotional about how are we going to feel about what we're doing? [42:47.440 -> 42:49.360] So that's why ACE came about. [42:49.360 -> 42:52.960] So it was empowered by the players and the elements they wanted. [42:53.280 -> 42:56.720] And then it was streamed into those three categories. [42:57.040 -> 42:59.880] And those three categories have really been the backbone of nearly everything [42:59.880 -> 43:02.400] we've done when you talk about culture at the club ever since. [43:02.760 -> 43:05.920] And although we've added to them, we've added them to add a little bit of, a [43:05.920 -> 43:09.280] little bit of change and a little bit of freshness, but if you think when you [43:09.280 -> 43:13.360] had Grace and you had Graft on top of Attitude, they're kind of similar things, [43:13.560 -> 43:16.920] but the players wanted to just develop them and push them on a little bit. [43:17.200 -> 43:19.840] And of course the respect one was really important because it was [43:19.840 -> 43:21.000] our second year in the premiership. [43:21.400 -> 43:24.600] And I asked the guys who put respect, because a lot of guys put respect, and [43:24.600 -> 43:25.840] I asked them what they meant by it. [43:26.000 -> 43:27.760] And they said, we want to show respect [43:27.760 -> 43:29.600] for other people, but we want to earn [43:29.600 -> 43:30.600] respect as well. [43:31.080 -> 43:32.920] And so they really used it as a two way, [43:33.240 -> 43:36.040] like a mirror almost, of what they wanted [43:36.040 -> 43:37.040] the team to be about. [43:37.240 -> 43:38.840] A team that could demand respect, [43:39.560 -> 43:41.120] but also respected what they had and the [43:41.120 -> 43:42.560] opportunities they had and how they [43:42.560 -> 43:43.560] behaved with each other. [43:43.840 -> 43:44.920] I think that's what you need to do. [43:44.920 -> 43:47.480] You need to, you need to make sure players are aware if they're going to [43:47.480 -> 43:51.920] come up with a culture thing or identity, they need to be aware of what are the [43:51.920 -> 43:53.280] areas that that should address. [43:53.600 -> 43:57.000] And obviously it should address your, your, your individual stuff around [43:57.000 -> 44:00.160] your training and your prep, how you're committed to each other and your group [44:00.160 -> 44:01.680] stuff and what you want to achieve. [44:01.680 -> 44:03.480] And then what's the emotional side of it? [44:03.480 -> 44:05.720] What, what do you want to get out of it? [44:05.720 -> 44:09.040] Because I don't mind telling you when you first become a [44:09.040 -> 44:10.720] leader, when you first get your responsibility, [44:10.720 -> 44:12.480] you don't spend a lot of time walking around talking about [44:12.480 -> 44:14.680] enjoyment. You genuinely don't. [44:14.680 -> 44:17.840] You start, you do, but you talk about schedules and timing [44:17.840 -> 44:21.360] and weight training and protein shakes and everything that's [44:21.360 -> 44:22.920] like, seems really serious. [44:22.920 -> 44:24.040] And then when a few players turn around and go, [44:24.040 -> 44:25.920] well, I want to really enjoy it. [44:25.920 -> 44:27.120] I want to really enjoy coming in training. [44:27.120 -> 44:29.120] I want to really enjoy playing for this rugby side. [44:29.120 -> 44:33.640] And you stop and you stop for a little while and you go, [44:33.640 -> 44:35.680] actually, that's probably really important. [44:35.680 -> 44:37.120] That's probably the most important part. [44:37.120 -> 44:38.520] So interesting. [44:38.520 -> 44:40.400] Rob, we've reached the point of our conversation [44:40.400 -> 44:43.320] where we throw a few quickfire questions at you. [44:43.320 -> 44:45.240] And the first one is, [44:45.240 -> 44:48.300] what are the three non-negotiable behaviors [44:48.300 -> 44:51.520] that you and the people around you need to buy into? [44:51.520 -> 44:53.400] I'll be honest with you, we probably don't have three. [44:53.400 -> 44:55.160] We would probably just wrap it up into like, [44:55.160 -> 44:57.160] just to work hard. [44:57.160 -> 44:58.960] And we probably talk about that more than anything else. [44:58.960 -> 45:00.480] That's probably where graft came into it [45:00.480 -> 45:02.400] all those years ago, just work hard. [45:02.400 -> 45:04.560] But when you say work hard and people go, [45:04.560 -> 45:07.480] oh, that's it, what's non-negotiable is you work hard at everything. [45:07.760 -> 45:10.000] That means working hard at building relationships with [45:10.000 -> 45:12.680] people and, you know, and learning about other people [45:12.680 -> 45:15.400] and knowing what makes each other tick. [45:15.560 -> 45:16.760] You know, that's part of working hard. [45:16.760 -> 45:19.120] Working hard isn't just, you know, how many reps on the [45:19.120 -> 45:20.840] bench press can I do right now? [45:20.880 -> 45:22.160] Cause I've got to work hard at doing it. [45:22.520 -> 45:24.720] You know, that also means, you know, you work hard [45:24.720 -> 45:28.280] at enjoying what you do. You know, you work hard at being with [45:28.280 -> 45:31.800] people, enjoying your time together, enjoying grabbing a coffee together and enjoying talking [45:31.800 -> 45:36.280] to each other about last night's TV, if that's an important thing to you. It's, it's an understanding [45:36.280 -> 45:38.360] of working hard, you know, across the board. [45:38.360 -> 45:40.320] Rob Mayzes Brilliant. We can, we can break that down [45:40.320 -> 45:44.360] then work hard, enjoy it and do it consistently. How about those three? [45:44.360 -> 45:46.720] Rob Mayzes Very, very relevant. Very relevant. [45:47.160 -> 45:50.800] Rob, if you could go back to one moment in your life, what would it be? And why? [45:51.080 -> 45:55.680] It's funny, because I get asked this quite a lot. Cause I think everyone thinks that I'll just drop it back to being like a rugby thing. [45:55.880 -> 46:07.360] If someone said I could go back to a time in my life, it would probably be, I don't know, probably, probably when my kids were like 10 and 7, I think I'd finished playing rugby for a year or two, was just getting into coaching. [46:07.360 -> 46:09.360] That looked like it was starting to take off for me. [46:09.360 -> 46:11.400] So I was kind of almost like starting a second career. [46:11.760 -> 46:14.960] The kids were that age where, and everyone knows this, who's gone through with kids [46:14.960 -> 46:18.040] who have grown up, mine are 25 and 22 now, left home. [46:18.560 -> 46:21.400] You have that period where they still really need you, but they have enough [46:21.400 -> 46:22.960] independence to do things themselves. [46:23.040 -> 46:24.640] Everything you do with them is just brilliant. [46:25.160 -> 46:27.640] It's just, it's that perfect time in your life where you're [46:27.640 -> 46:28.800] just getting on with stuff. [46:29.040 -> 46:30.200] Everyone seems happy. [46:30.720 -> 46:33.160] Things are still pretty magical for kids at that age. [46:33.480 -> 46:36.320] Everything, family life, that felt very positive for me. [46:36.400 -> 46:37.960] Like I say, I was getting a new experience, I was really [46:37.960 -> 46:39.080] enjoying getting into coaching. [46:39.480 -> 46:42.400] I would go back then, more than I would go back to sitting in [46:42.400 -> 46:44.720] the Twickenham stands when we won our first final. [46:44.760 -> 46:51.280] I mean, that was great, but that's not a fulfilling life moment for you when, you know, [46:51.280 -> 46:52.320] when other things are happening. [46:52.320 -> 46:54.880] Rob Mayzes Oh, thank you for sharing that. That's really [46:54.880 -> 47:00.320] beautiful. Thank you. Rob, if you could recommend one book for the listeners of our podcast that's [47:00.320 -> 47:02.320] had an impact on you, which one would you go for? [47:02.320 -> 47:06.080] Rob Mayzes I think the book that really piqued my bigger interest [47:06.080 -> 47:09.920] around what being a director of rugby really is, [47:09.920 -> 47:11.600] was probably Patriot Reign, [47:11.600 -> 47:12.920] because that explained very much [47:12.920 -> 47:15.960] about how they started to create an organisation [47:15.960 -> 47:19.760] that dealt with all the elements of a successful team, [47:19.760 -> 47:22.000] club, business, however you wanted to do it. [47:22.000 -> 47:23.720] And I found that really interesting. [47:23.720 -> 47:26.760] And to be fair, if people want to watch anything, [47:26.760 -> 47:28.920] anything that, if a coach wants to watch something [47:28.920 -> 47:30.720] that can help you tell a story, you know, [47:30.720 -> 47:35.680] the America's Games video series is incredible [47:35.680 -> 47:37.600] because if you prepare to watch enough of them, [47:37.600 -> 47:39.800] you can find so many different stories. [47:39.800 -> 47:40.640] Anything like that, [47:40.640 -> 47:42.000] that can help you tell a coaching story [47:42.000 -> 47:43.680] because that's what we do, don't we? [47:43.680 -> 47:49.680] As like me, my job is to tell a story that the players follow and they believe and they're part of, [47:49.680 -> 47:53.280] you know, and that, those things I find, I find intriguing really. [47:53.280 -> 47:55.920] Steve Maroon How important is legacy to you? [47:55.920 -> 47:57.760] Tom Cloughert Yeah, it's probably become [47:58.320 -> 48:03.360] in weirdly almost the defining thing in some ways, isn't it? Is that once you start getting success [48:03.360 -> 48:08.880] is how you hold on to it. And I see, I've already said the wrong thing there. This is the problem. We all start thinking, [48:08.880 -> 48:12.400] right, we've got success now, we need to kind of hold on to it. And the worst thing, if you're in [48:12.400 -> 48:16.320] a sporting career where you're clinging on by your fingernails, that's even worse than being a [48:16.320 -> 48:20.640] director of rugby, trying to cling on to pass success by your fingernails. Legacy is about [48:21.200 -> 48:25.800] building the next team and the next title. That's how you, that's legacy, isn't it? [48:25.800 -> 48:26.880] And I don't want you to say, [48:26.880 -> 48:28.280] I have to keep reminding myself of it [48:28.280 -> 48:29.760] because you even said it then, you know, [48:29.760 -> 48:31.240] I even, I started saying it, didn't I? [48:31.240 -> 48:32.800] Yeah, holding on to success. [48:32.800 -> 48:34.680] Cause it's our natural reaction, it's not. [48:34.680 -> 48:37.840] And I think that's probably what's been, [48:37.840 -> 48:40.320] I've really found refreshing since Christmas this year. [48:40.320 -> 48:42.280] And I don't mind saying, you know, [48:42.280 -> 48:46.200] I feel like I found a little bit of a new energy and drive since [48:46.200 -> 48:50.240] Christmas and I think our team has and I think our results and our performances show that. [48:50.240 -> 48:59.440] I actually think maybe we collectively, players and staff, were over-focused on how we stayed [48:59.440 -> 49:05.960] where we were expected to be. I think we were fortunate. we had a week off around Christmas and I obviously spent a couple of [49:05.960 -> 49:09.480] days at home and had a good bit of time pondering over stuff. [49:09.480 -> 49:11.680] And we actually rerun the clock a bit when we got in after [49:11.680 -> 49:14.560] Christmas, which we went, we talked about a lot of the things [49:14.560 -> 49:16.840] you're hearing me talk about now, we started talking about [49:16.840 -> 49:17.120] again. [49:17.840 -> 49:19.240] Toby Perkins-Greenaway. Brilliant. And our final [49:19.240 -> 49:22.760] question, Rob, is what would you like to leave the listeners or [49:22.760 -> 49:26.760] the viewers of this podcast with as your one golden rule [49:26.760 -> 49:29.000] for living a high performance life? [49:29.000 -> 49:30.480] Probably just going to repeat myself here, [49:30.480 -> 49:32.720] it's probably that work hard, play hard. [49:32.720 -> 49:34.760] I mean, Richard Branson, I think, [49:34.760 -> 49:36.480] is a guy who spoke about this. [49:36.480 -> 49:38.800] He spends a lot of time making sure that his time off [49:38.800 -> 49:40.200] is really good time off. [49:40.200 -> 49:42.000] And I think that's important for professional rugby players, [49:42.000 -> 49:45.040] important for people in any life at all, [49:45.040 -> 49:46.960] where you're busy and you have limited time. [49:46.960 -> 49:49.160] Make sure you work hard to enjoy that time off. [49:49.160 -> 49:51.640] Make sure that it's valuable. [49:51.640 -> 49:52.960] Make sure you make the most of it [49:52.960 -> 49:56.200] because then you start to enjoy everything. [49:56.200 -> 49:58.320] You become used to maximizing your opportunities [49:58.320 -> 49:59.160] at everything. [49:59.160 -> 50:00.200] And sometimes that opportunity might be [50:00.200 -> 50:02.040] you get a week off to go and sit in the sun. [50:02.040 -> 50:04.000] Well, if you do, and what you want to do [50:04.000 -> 50:06.360] is sit in the sun and read a book, great. [50:06.360 -> 50:08.120] Maximise the opportunity and go and do it. [50:08.120 -> 50:10.400] If you want to be out and you want to fulfil things, [50:10.400 -> 50:11.240] you want to go and see things, [50:11.240 -> 50:12.960] you want to go out, go and make sure you do. [50:12.960 -> 50:14.440] Work hard at enjoying yourself, [50:14.440 -> 50:16.200] as well as working hard to be successful [50:16.200 -> 50:17.320] in the things you do. [50:17.320 -> 50:19.280] That's what it's about, that understanding [50:19.280 -> 50:21.760] that there's lots of ways you can push yourself [50:21.760 -> 50:22.880] to get what you want out of things [50:22.880 -> 50:25.400] is how I describe what we like to try and do [50:25.400 -> 50:26.600] with our players. [50:26.600 -> 50:27.520] Fantastic. [50:27.520 -> 50:30.040] Look, Rob, thank you so much for taking the time [50:30.040 -> 50:32.920] to have a conversation with us about this kind of thing. [50:32.920 -> 50:35.200] Because I think that the more that we can talk about [50:35.200 -> 50:37.440] building resilience to deal with stress, [50:37.440 -> 50:39.960] the more we realise that actually building resilience [50:39.960 -> 50:42.680] allows us to explore and do so many things. [50:42.680 -> 50:45.600] And I think exploration is probably the key word [50:45.600 -> 50:47.440] that leaps out to me from this conversation. [50:47.440 -> 50:49.180] And it's clear that you're someone who, [50:49.180 -> 50:51.080] by not holding onto what's happened before, [50:51.080 -> 50:52.340] you're constantly exploring. [50:52.340 -> 50:54.680] That exploration gives your players [50:54.680 -> 50:57.600] the layers that they require, the layers that you require. [50:57.600 -> 50:58.680] It allows you to evolve. [50:58.680 -> 51:00.640] And I love the fact that after all these years [51:00.640 -> 51:02.960] of playing rugby and captaining a rugby kit team [51:02.960 -> 51:05.880] and now being in charge at Exeter, [51:05.880 -> 51:07.500] you've realised that the single most important thing [51:07.500 -> 51:08.720] is enjoyment. [51:08.720 -> 51:11.160] And that's a great lesson to leave people with, I think. [51:11.160 -> 51:12.800] Definitely, definitely. [51:12.800 -> 51:16.280] ♪♪ [51:16.280 -> 51:17.120] Damien. [51:17.120 -> 51:17.940] Jake. [51:17.940 -> 51:19.400] I've got my notepad here and I've written down [51:19.400 -> 51:21.800] half a page worth of takeaways from that conversation. [51:21.800 -> 51:23.560] I think it's another example of the fact [51:23.560 -> 51:27.200] that you can look at someone like Rob and go, director of rugby, [51:27.200 -> 51:28.600] let's have a rugby conversation. [51:28.600 -> 51:30.220] And it's not a rugby conversation, [51:30.220 -> 51:31.440] it's a conversation about life. [51:31.440 -> 51:34.320] And of all of the things that I took away from that, [51:34.320 -> 51:38.480] it's how he's framed success on a rugby field. [51:38.480 -> 51:40.760] To really simply link to life, you know, [51:40.760 -> 51:44.160] to not hold onto things, to that conversation, mate, [51:44.160 -> 51:45.040] about doing [51:45.040 -> 51:49.440] the things that are difficult, because actually, I've always looked at them and thought, yeah, [51:49.440 -> 51:51.760] but ooh, they're definitely riskier. Then he's like, well, are they riskier? Because [51:51.760 -> 51:56.520] if you don't do the hard things, it allows the opposition to punish you, so therefore [51:56.520 -> 52:02.520] it's actually less risky to take the chance. And it's that same old sort of phrase in real [52:02.520 -> 52:05.160] life, isn't it? If you don't do anything, that's kind of the biggest risk of all. [52:05.360 -> 52:06.280] Yeah, definitely. [52:06.560 -> 52:10.560] I love that idea of like, um, like military environments use it, don't they? [52:10.560 -> 52:13.440] Especially the elite ones where they say when you come under pressure, you don't [52:13.440 -> 52:16.760] rise to the performance, you descend to your natural level of training. [52:17.120 -> 52:21.800] So if you're creating a culture where people can take a risk there and they can [52:21.800 -> 52:25.280] fail and then they can reflect and learn and get better at it, when you come under the pressure of a real life game situation, you've already done, like you y gallant ddod yn ystod y risg a gallant ddiddorio a gallant ymdrechu a ddysgu a chael ei wella. [52:25.280 -> 52:28.320] Pan ddod yn y pwysau o sefyllfa gêm bywyd bywyd, [52:28.320 -> 52:31.440] rydych chi wedi gwneud, fel y dweudwch, y gwaith haus sy'n golygu [52:31.440 -> 52:34.400] y bydd gennych ni ddigwyddiad o hyder yn yr hyn rhaid i chi gynnal. [52:34.400 -> 52:37.040] Ac rwy'n credu y gallwn siarad fel hynny, [52:37.040 -> 52:39.600] ond rwy'n credu yr hyn a ddemonstrowyd Rob yno oedd [52:39.600 -> 52:44.320] creu diwygiad lle mae pobl yn teimlo'n ddod yn odd i wneud y pwyntion, y coch-upau hynny, [52:44.320 -> 52:49.240] ond deallu pam maen nhw'n eu gwneud, mae'n bwysig iawn. culture where people feel safe enough to make those mistakes, those cock-ups, but understand why they're doing it is so key. Toby Greenaway-You know, we've said before, haven't we, [52:49.240 -> 52:53.000] like we often listen to our guests and think, well, I want my child to be in an [52:53.000 -> 52:57.800] environment where they are. Like if Seb was a rugby player, I would love him to [52:57.800 -> 53:01.880] be under Rob's guidance because you just, you can see that it's a safe, nurturing [53:01.880 -> 53:26.000] environment, but also an environment that is, let's not be, you know, be gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n gobeithio, dwi'n dweud, o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:26.000 -> 53:28.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:28.000 -> 53:30.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:30.000 -> 53:32.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:32.000 -> 53:34.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:34.000 -> 53:36.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:36.000 -> 53:38.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:38.000 -> 53:40.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:40.000 -> 53:42.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:42.000 -> 53:44.000] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, [53:44.000 -> 53:47.240] o'r ffordd y byddai'n dweud, o'r ffordifau a oedd yn rhoi arnyn nhw i ni yno. Ac fel y dweudwch, byddwn yn hapus i fy mhrof [53:47.240 -> 53:50.720] i fynd i'r amgylchedd honno, 100%, yn debyg. [53:50.720 -> 53:53.800] Yn ystod yr awthenticiaeth, [53:53.800 -> 53:58.400] fel y diwedd yno, lle mae'n siarad am y dyfodol [53:58.400 -> 54:00.960] ac yna mae'n ymgyrchu'n ffwrdd. [54:00.960 -> 54:03.840] Dyma ddau, dydyn ni ddim yn gysylltu [54:03.840 -> 54:08.040] gyda'r rhai rydyn ni wedi'u cael, mae'n ymdrechu ar y peth nesaf. Dydyn ni ddim yn unig yn y dyrwyddo sy'n lywio of corrects himself and says, no, like, it's not, legacy is not holding on to what we've got. It's striving for the next thing. He's not just a guy that's read a few self-help [54:08.040 -> 54:12.200] books and done a bit of management and is just repeating those things to us. He's kind [54:12.200 -> 54:16.280] of actively assessing the way that he's operating, what he's doing, even to the point where when [54:16.280 -> 54:20.680] he's talking to us, he's happy to pick up on himself if he, if he's kind of not said [54:20.680 -> 54:22.800] the right thing or not put the message across correctly. [54:22.800 -> 54:25.240] Jason Vale – Yeah. And I think that was evident in, you know, when he spoke about ddim yn dweud y peth da, neu ddim yn rhoi'r sylwad drosodd yn iawn. Ie, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny'n amlwg, [54:25.240 -> 54:27.640] a gwybod, pan ddweud am ei hyn o farchnad ei hun, [54:27.640 -> 54:28.760] fel ffarmwr, [54:28.760 -> 54:30.880] y bydd ymddiried y realiaeth [54:30.880 -> 54:32.040] o'r hyn rydych chi'n ei ymdrechu, [54:32.040 -> 54:33.960] yn hytrach na'r hyn rydych chi'n eisiau ei fod. [54:33.960 -> 54:36.960] Rwy'n credu ei fod yn y moment yn ystod, [54:36.960 -> 54:39.760] yn ceisio ar y lle mae ei ffyrdd yn cael eu plantio nawr, [54:39.760 -> 54:42.000] yn hytrach na'r lle rydyn ni'n eisiau eu bod. [54:42.000 -> 54:44.320] Ac rwy'n credu, ie, rydych chi'n iawn, [54:44.320 -> 54:46.640] mae'n rhoi profiadau bywydau'n wir i hyn, yn hytrach na'r hyn y gallech chi ddweud yn y llyfr teg, rather than where he wants them to be. And I think that, yeah, you're right. He's bringing real life experiences to it [54:46.640 -> 54:49.360] rather than just what you might read in a textbook [54:49.360 -> 54:51.040] and trying to apply the theory. [54:51.040 -> 54:53.600] He's applying the practice and then allowing us [54:53.600 -> 54:56.280] to create a theory on the back of it. [54:56.280 -> 54:58.160] Brilliant. I really enjoyed it, Damien. [54:58.160 -> 54:59.360] I did, Jake. I loved it. [54:59.360 -> 55:01.640] I feel really energized myself now. [55:01.640 -> 55:02.680] Top man. Thanks a lot. [55:02.680 -> 55:03.520] Thank you, mate. [55:06.200 -> 55:08.720] Well, I really hope you enjoyed that conversation with Rob. [55:09.000 -> 55:11.120] Myself and Damian found it really interesting. [55:11.120 -> 55:14.000] We've got two more episodes from the Gallagher Leadership Series. [55:14.000 -> 55:15.800] They'll be coming out every single Wednesday, [55:16.100 -> 55:18.040] and they're so different. [55:18.040 -> 55:19.880] They're three really different conversations, [55:19.880 -> 55:22.720] and I think that's what's interesting about high performance. [55:22.720 -> 55:26.280] And I think one of the reasons why so many people are coming to this podcast is that [55:26.280 -> 55:27.680] we're not telling you what to think. [55:27.680 -> 55:31.020] We're not saying that the decisions and the ideas [55:31.020 -> 55:33.140] and the approach that Rob Baxter has [55:33.140 -> 55:34.760] is the approach that you should have. [55:34.760 -> 55:36.240] We're just putting it out there [55:36.240 -> 55:38.740] as a potential approach to life. [55:38.740 -> 55:41.720] And you will hear two other episodes from this series, [55:41.720 -> 55:44.760] very different ideas, very different mindsets, [55:44.760 -> 55:46.920] but I know you'll get loads from them both. [55:46.920 -> 55:49.120] And don't forget, if you want a deeper relationship [55:49.120 -> 55:51.200] with high performance, then you can get one. [55:51.200 -> 55:56.200] All you need to do is go to thehighperformancepodcast.com. [55:56.360 -> 55:57.840] There you can join our members club [55:57.840 -> 55:59.560] where you will get a weekly newsletter. [55:59.560 -> 56:02.920] You will get access to high performance boosts, [56:02.920 -> 56:05.520] to keynote speeches, to exclusive podcast [56:05.520 -> 56:09.400] episodes. You can also watch these episodes as well as listen to them. Just [56:09.400 -> 56:13.960] go to YouTube, type in High Performance Podcast and subscribe to us right there. [56:13.960 -> 56:18.560] And if you can rate, review and subscribe to this podcast, it makes a huge [56:18.560 -> 56:22.080] difference. So thank you so much for listening and we'll see you very soon [56:22.080 -> 56:25.760] for another episode of the High Performance Podcast. [56:25.760 -> 56:30.920] So there you have it, the coming together of two really cool brands to create the Gallagher [56:30.920 -> 56:36.600] Leadership Series with the High Performance Podcast. And as well as this, Gallagher also [56:36.600 -> 56:40.480] recognised that leading a business, being a leader can actually be a really intense [56:40.480 -> 56:49.940] and isolating job, especially over the last couple of years. Loads of important and difficult decisions, plus often the ultimate success of an entire organisation resting [56:49.940 -> 56:55.280] on one individual's shoulders. And that same pressure is experienced so often by leaders [56:55.280 -> 57:01.760] in elite rugby. And it's for that reason that Galaga have created the Galaga Leaders Trust, [57:01.760 -> 57:10.040] which is a mentoring network for directors of rugby and head coaches across 13 premiership rugby clubs. Gallagher know that to perform at [57:10.040 -> 57:13.980] the highest level business leaders need a strong network of trusted advisors to [57:13.980 -> 57:17.920] help tackle the load of leadership and that's why this season as proud title [57:17.920 -> 57:21.080] partner of Premiership Rugby, Gallagher has launched this campaign which [57:21.080 -> 57:30.000] recognises it can be tough at the top, aiming to help leaders across business and rugby excel and perform at their very best. [57:30.000 -> 57:34.080] Gallagher, thank you so much for partnering with us here at the High Performance Podcast. [57:34.080 -> 57:51.220] I know that these conversations are going to help so many people. the next, video!!