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Notes
Welcome to Braking Bias! The motorsports tech podcast where the only bias we have is for motorsports tech! Join Co-hosts Molly and Dr. Obbs as they explore their highs and lows from the first half of the F1 season thus far. The cover McLaren's mid season resurgence, Aston Martin's fall off, and Mercedes continued challenges. They also discuss hierarchy of Power Units so far, explore the use of AI in motorsports with AI's Quantum Black and Pit Rho, and Dr. Obbs leads a discussion around why we see teams taking such drastic measures with their Rear Wing End Plates.
In this engaging episode of the Breaking Bias podcast, hosts Dr. Obbs and Molly Marissa dive headfirst into the captivating world of Formula One (F1) motorsports. The spotlight is on the upcoming Zandvoort race, with the hosts expressing their palpable anticipation for what promises to be a thrilling Dutch Grand Prix.
Aston Martin's journey, marked by a strong start followed by a performance decline, undergoes insightful analysis. The hosts explore potential reasons for the team's struggles, while also shedding light on McLaren's impressive resurgence, especially after their strategic upgrade package.
Mercedes takes center stage as the hosts discuss the team's ongoing evolution of side pods, emphasizing their experimentation with different designs and the potential impact on overall performance. The intricacies of Red Bull and other teams' floor designs are also explored, underlining the crucial role of these aerodynamic elements in generating downforce.
Tire degradation emerges as a challenge for teams, particularly with the introduction of stiffer sidewalls by Pirelli. The hosts delve into the complexities of managing tire performance in the competitive F1 landscape.
Looking ahead to the Zandvoort race, the hosts speculate on potential upgrades from Aston Martin and analyze Mercedes' recent performance gains, attributing them to successful side pod modifications and an enhanced understanding of the car's dynamics.
A broader discussion ensues about the powertrain pecking order on the grid, with insights into Ferrari's speed but unreliability, Red Bull's low-drag advantage, Mercedes' formidable unit, and Alpine's struggles at the bottom.
The hosts emphasize the holistic approach to evaluating car performance, highlighting the importance of considering the entire system, including aerodynamics and drag. Fred Vasseur's assessment of Red Bull's well-rounded car is discussed, showcasing the team's overall strength.
The podcast also explores the increasing complexity of brake temperature management, noting the significance of brake duct winglets and air direction in car design.
As the hosts express curiosity about potential future upgrades and overhauls in the second half of the season, they also touch on the excitement surrounding the upcoming Monza race. Anticipation builds for the low downforce specifications teams will bring and the implications for power unit performance.
In conclusion, Breaking Bias delivers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of the dynamic world of Formula One, covering everything from team performance and technological innovations to strategic considerations and the intriguing developments awaiting the F1 community in the second half of the season.
Raw Transcript with Timestamps
[00:00.000 -> 00:25.520] Welcome to the first episode of the Breaking Bias podcast, a motorsports tech podcast where the only [00:25.520 -> 00:31.340] bias we have about motorsports is that we like really cool tech. I'm Molly, your [00:31.340 -> 00:37.820] co-host, and I am joined by my co-host Dr. Obbs. How are you? Hello! Welcome to our [00:37.820 -> 00:43.740] new home. I'm doing great, Molly. I'm so excited about the Breaking Bias podcast. [00:43.740 -> 00:46.560] We're gonna really be demystifying [00:46.560 -> 00:52.640] motorsports tech across all the motorsport platforms. I'm super excited. Our first episode. [00:53.600 -> 01:01.120] Yay! We're kicking things off with a bang. I think we have a lot of really fun tech topics to talk [01:01.120 -> 01:05.460] about that we're going to get into and I think we wanted to kind of welcome the listeners [01:05.460 -> 01:10.300] and explain what we're about and what we plan to do here over on Breaking Bias. [01:10.420 -> 01:13.600] Yeah. So, you know, we have a [01:14.260 -> 01:18.440] really specific mission and vision for what we want to do with Breaking Bias. [01:18.760 -> 01:22.440] I think it's by no accident that the podcast is called Breaking Bias, [01:22.440 -> 01:25.700] because for us, you us, like you said, [01:25.700 -> 01:27.240] the only bias that we have really [01:27.240 -> 01:29.160] is really cool motorsport tech, [01:29.160 -> 01:31.960] but aside from that, we don't get hung up [01:31.960 -> 01:33.640] on all these team biases [01:33.640 -> 01:36.340] and all these different motorsport platform biases, [01:36.340 -> 01:39.400] Formula One, IndyCar, WEC, we love it all. [01:39.400 -> 01:40.520] We love all the motorsports. [01:40.520 -> 01:41.360] We really wanna break- [01:41.360 -> 01:42.440] NASCAR, can't forget either. [01:42.440 -> 01:44.560] Yes, NASCAR, absolutely. [01:44.560 -> 01:46.920] We wanna break down all those biases. [01:46.920 -> 01:51.920] And also, you are a kick-A female. [01:52.380 -> 01:56.080] I don't know if I can curse on this podcast, but you are- [01:56.080 -> 01:57.360] We'll put the explicit tag. [01:57.360 -> 01:58.200] We'll put it in there. [01:58.200 -> 01:59.020] Go for it. [01:59.020 -> 02:01.780] Okay, you are a kick-ass female, Molly, [02:01.780 -> 02:03.520] in the motorsport tech world. [02:03.520 -> 02:05.660] And there are not a whole lot of those. [02:05.660 -> 02:08.300] So we are definitely breaking some gender biases [02:08.300 -> 02:10.000] with this podcast as well. [02:10.000 -> 02:11.460] That's really our mission and our vision [02:11.460 -> 02:15.520] is to be just inclusive in all, you know, [02:15.520 -> 02:18.480] motorsport categories, genders, backgrounds. [02:18.480 -> 02:19.620] You don't have to be an engineer [02:19.620 -> 02:21.320] to understand tech either, do you? [02:21.320 -> 02:22.440] Yes, exactly. [02:22.440 -> 02:25.920] No, and that's my mission too with my pages as well is [02:25.920 -> 02:30.960] you shouldn't need an engineering background or science background to understand race cars. Like [02:30.960 -> 02:34.320] if you want to understand why a car looks like that, what the heck's going on or what they're [02:34.320 -> 02:39.120] talking about, you should be able to understand that. So I think Breaking Bias is going to be a [02:39.120 -> 02:45.860] great home for all of that on top of both of our platforms too, between Twitter, TikTok, and all of that good stuff too. [02:45.860 -> 02:49.240] So I think the plan is we'll just kind of hang out, [02:49.240 -> 02:50.440] talk motorsports tech. [02:50.440 -> 02:53.440] We'll obviously have some guests coming in and out. [02:53.440 -> 02:56.160] So some episodes may have guests, some may not. [02:56.160 -> 02:57.680] It'll just be OBS and I here. [02:57.680 -> 02:59.600] And like Dr. OBS said, [02:59.600 -> 03:02.600] we hold no bias to motorsports categories. [03:02.600 -> 03:06.760] So we will talk about everything from Formula One, WEC to IndyCar to NASCAR, [03:06.760 -> 03:08.200] everything in between too. [03:08.200 -> 03:12.320] So I'm really excited to kind of get things kicked off and get going. [03:13.440 -> 03:14.120] That's right. [03:14.120 -> 03:20.680] So I think getting us going in our first episode, we are days away from the, [03:21.240 -> 03:25.000] the, the summer season of F1 being over [03:25.320 -> 03:28.040] and us being back into racing. [03:28.040 -> 03:30.160] So we're going to start with F1 [03:30.160 -> 03:32.160] and we have to talk about Zandvoort [03:32.160 -> 03:34.000] that's coming up in a couple of days. [03:34.000 -> 03:35.160] I think so too. [03:35.160 -> 03:38.120] But it is midway through the season, Molly, [03:38.120 -> 03:40.180] and we've had a lot of really cool tech stuff [03:40.180 -> 03:41.520] that's happened up until this point. [03:41.520 -> 03:44.620] What are some things maybe that have caught your eye? [03:44.620 -> 03:50.480] I think some of the biggest wows at least like to me I have to start with Aston Martin obviously [03:50.480 -> 03:55.520] where they started the year with a bang and kind of seemed to have tapered off and that was a point [03:55.520 -> 04:00.960] that I had made in other spaces was are they going to be able to keep up that momentum. I think there's [04:00.960 -> 04:05.720] also been some wows for me from McLaren I I think we were planning to talk about that anyway. [04:05.720 -> 04:08.940] And then the quick pivot from Mercedes with the Hyde Pod, [04:08.940 -> 04:11.420] the Wide Pod, the 0.5 Pod. [04:11.420 -> 04:15.000] And I think the floor, finally seeing some floors [04:15.000 -> 04:17.560] that were kind of mystic to us with, [04:17.560 -> 04:19.820] especially the Red Bull. [04:19.820 -> 04:22.080] Yes, Monaco and the flying floors. [04:22.080 -> 04:24.660] So I think those are like my top four so far. [04:24.660 -> 04:27.360] What has kind of stuck out to you wow-wise? [04:27.360 -> 04:30.640] Or like, I liked it, someone called it like roses or thorns [04:30.640 -> 04:33.540] with text, like what's stuck out to you so far? [04:34.440 -> 04:37.720] Those are definitely some things that I noticed as well. [04:37.720 -> 04:39.400] I mean, like you said, the floors, [04:39.400 -> 04:41.160] the biggest thing that jumped out to me [04:41.160 -> 04:43.720] was everyone really getting to see [04:43.720 -> 04:47.800] sort of the intricacies that there were in the Red Bull floor maybe compared to some of [04:47.800 -> 04:53.520] the you know the McLaren and the Ferrari floors and things like that. And the [04:53.520 -> 04:58.600] other thing was just seeing the sort of growth of the Mercedes during the course [04:58.600 -> 05:07.960] of the year right. I don't know how many different side pods they've had this year. Maybe I think it's been three, right? So three, four. Yeah, and the season's not over. [05:09.040 -> 05:12.680] No, and there's still time for more side pods. [05:12.680 -> 05:13.920] Yes, there is. There's plenty. [05:13.920 -> 05:20.400] Yeah, it looks like this latest version seems to have given them a step, but you mentioned McLaren and [05:21.200 -> 05:22.960] for me, I think [05:22.960 -> 05:27.760] performance step wise that was probably the biggest one that I noticed [05:27.760 -> 05:30.400] was just the jump that they made. [05:30.400 -> 05:32.000] Yeah, it was really impressive. [05:32.000 -> 05:33.920] I mean, I don't know, you know, [05:33.920 -> 05:36.800] I was kind of studying the McLaren upgrade [05:36.800 -> 05:38.400] to understand a bit more about it. [05:38.400 -> 05:39.480] And there's definitely some things [05:39.480 -> 05:40.680] that we could see with our eyes [05:40.680 -> 05:41.920] as far as little, you know, [05:41.920 -> 05:44.320] detailing and things they've done with the, [05:44.320 -> 05:46.560] with the side pods and the, and the water slides [05:46.560 -> 05:48.840] or the gullies, whatever you want to call them. [05:48.840 -> 05:51.400] But I think a lot of it's been done underneath the car. [05:51.400 -> 05:52.240] We probably can't see. [05:52.240 -> 05:53.520] I do too. [05:53.520 -> 05:54.340] I really do too. [05:54.340 -> 05:57.520] And I think Blake, friend of the pod, [05:57.520 -> 05:59.120] Brake for anybody that knows him. [05:59.120 -> 06:00.880] He had a good, he had a, yeah, [06:00.880 -> 06:03.240] he had a really good video out that actually like, [06:03.240 -> 06:05.360] he dove into the data and there's [06:05.360 -> 06:10.160] like I think he said it was like a 1.5 percent increase or something like he's actually delved [06:10.160 -> 06:15.440] into the numbers behind it in the telemetry too and it's absolutely fascinating and I think [06:15.440 -> 06:21.680] we know I agree with it being on the underside of the car for sure I mean we know that McLaren [06:22.320 -> 06:26.240] at least last season and at least the start of this season, was they've [06:26.240 -> 06:28.560] had a terrible drag to downforce ratio. [06:28.560 -> 06:32.240] So that means the car is not efficient at all. [06:32.240 -> 06:36.200] So while they may have had a higher downforce car, which is great for the ground effect [06:36.200 -> 06:41.840] and great for production of downforce, maintaining that and having a fast car that way, they [06:41.840 -> 06:44.080] had a lot of drag, which is bad. [06:44.080 -> 06:45.680] So that means it's inefficient. [06:45.680 -> 06:47.480] And that's really, not only is it like a power [06:47.480 -> 06:49.400] to weight ratio thing with like your powertrain, [06:49.400 -> 06:51.480] but it's also your drag to downforce. [06:51.480 -> 06:53.680] How efficient are you producing downforce [06:53.680 -> 06:54.800] and how low drag are you? [06:54.800 -> 06:56.920] And that's, I think something that I've noticed [06:56.920 -> 06:59.160] is that car is really inefficient in that area. [06:59.160 -> 07:02.040] And I've said that multiple other places. [07:02.040 -> 07:03.280] And then on top of that, [07:03.280 -> 07:08.760] the car is really weak in the front end. It has been, that's kind of like the key trait that we've heard talked about [07:08.760 -> 07:13.360] for a really long time. And there's some stuff that drivers can do to help, but it [07:13.360 -> 07:17.920] doesn't get you speed because you're still really inefficient. So I think that [07:17.920 -> 07:22.520] whatever they've done, they've obviously been able to keep the high downforce [07:22.520 -> 07:30.400] and reduce the drag. So I think there's been a lot of work underneath, but I think all of the stuff that we can see is playing into improving that ratio [07:30.400 -> 07:34.960] and making sure that it's now more balanced or you have more downforce than you do drag. [07:34.960 -> 07:39.520] So it's kind of helping them have that speed because we know the Mercedes power units are fast. [07:39.520 -> 07:44.480] We know that they're reliable. They're not like the weakest one in the field out of the five. [07:44.480 -> 07:48.080] And so I think not only with what we can see, but I think what we can't see [07:48.080 -> 07:51.920] has really played into maintaining the downforce level while reducing the [07:51.920 -> 07:55.480] overall drag that they're producing. I think that that's played into their [07:55.480 -> 07:59.280] resurgence all of a sudden. This huge upgrade package that they brought and I [07:59.280 -> 08:03.820] think they've also obviously dealt with some of this front-end weakness. It looks [08:03.820 -> 08:06.160] a lot more, I would say, [08:06.160 -> 08:07.560] I don't want to say reliant. [08:07.560 -> 08:09.040] It looks a lot better to turn. [08:09.040 -> 08:10.960] It looks like it wants to turn a little bit more. [08:10.960 -> 08:14.640] It's not as weak on entry and kind of mid corner [08:14.640 -> 08:16.820] where we would see it in the past. [08:16.820 -> 08:20.020] Yeah, they've certainly done a lot of work, I would say, [08:20.020 -> 08:21.560] especially in the high speed corners [08:21.560 -> 08:23.820] from some of the data that I've looked at. [08:23.820 -> 08:26.140] I mean, they were very impressive in Silverstone at the British Grand Prix in the high speed corners from some of the data that I've looked at. I mean, they were very impressive in Silverstone [08:26.140 -> 08:29.080] at the British Grand Prix in the high speed corners, [08:29.080 -> 08:32.080] actually better performance wise than the RB19, [08:32.080 -> 08:33.960] which to me was really surprising. [08:34.960 -> 08:37.760] But I think that you mentioned kind of the weak front end. [08:37.760 -> 08:39.980] One of the things that I'm curious to see [08:39.980 -> 08:42.040] if they can get their heads around during the year [08:42.040 -> 08:45.440] is some of the tire degradation issues that they've had. [08:45.440 -> 08:47.620] I'm not sure if this is related maybe [08:47.620 -> 08:49.100] to the weakness of the front end, [08:49.100 -> 08:51.760] maybe a bit of sliding that might be there [08:51.760 -> 08:54.600] that's causing them to wear out their tires a bit faster, [08:54.600 -> 08:56.760] but they certainly need to get their heads around that. [08:56.760 -> 08:59.040] Yeah, and it seems like going off [08:59.040 -> 09:00.760] of getting their heads around stuff, [09:00.760 -> 09:05.180] it seems like they were shocked by their speed too. [09:05.180 -> 09:09.180] Like they seem to kind of show up and go, holy crap. [09:09.180 -> 09:10.720] I mean, we said we could swear on this podcast, [09:10.720 -> 09:13.600] but like they kind of had no shit moment. [09:13.600 -> 09:16.600] Like we're fast and oh shit. [09:16.600 -> 09:19.020] And it seemed like they weren't expecting that performance. [09:19.020 -> 09:22.100] And so I think also getting their head around that [09:22.100 -> 09:24.140] and figuring out, well, what did we do in the setup [09:24.140 -> 09:25.100] that this really worked? [09:25.100 -> 09:27.840] Getting that back to the models and making sure [09:27.840 -> 09:30.760] that they continue to iterate on that [09:30.760 -> 09:33.560] and their setup sheets and all of their different setups [09:33.560 -> 09:35.800] and models and simulations to make sure [09:35.800 -> 09:39.060] that they actually are truly understanding the performance [09:39.060 -> 09:42.800] and the dynamics of this new system that they've built. [09:42.800 -> 09:45.720] It seems like they also need to kind of continue [09:45.720 -> 09:47.400] to work on that as well. [09:47.400 -> 09:49.480] I think the tire thing as well. [09:49.480 -> 09:51.840] I think a lot of teams are probably in that boat [09:51.840 -> 09:55.680] with the stiffer sidewall too now that Pirelli has brought [09:55.680 -> 09:56.880] for the rest of the season. [09:56.880 -> 09:57.720] That's right, yeah. [09:57.720 -> 09:59.200] I mean, Pirelli has mentioned, you know, [09:59.200 -> 10:02.080] they brought the new tires to the British Grand Prix. [10:02.080 -> 10:05.360] They had mentioned that they're stronger, you know, the teams have a lot more down force, which is a testament to the British Grand Prix. They had mentioned that they're stronger, you know, [10:05.360 -> 10:11.520] the teams have a lot more downforce, which is a testament to the teams because they really tried [10:11.520 -> 10:16.480] to remove downforce this year by raising the floor edge to try to make it a little bit less, [10:17.680 -> 10:23.760] you know, peaky and the downforce on the aero map. But it seems like teams have found a way around [10:23.760 -> 10:25.600] that. And it's... If there's a will, have found a way around that. And it's- [10:25.600 -> 10:27.960] If there's a will, there's a way in racing. [10:27.960 -> 10:29.520] Yeah, absolutely. [10:29.520 -> 10:32.000] They will find a way and they've had the strength [10:32.000 -> 10:33.560] in the sidewall and these were tires [10:33.560 -> 10:35.920] they were supposed to roll out, I think next year, [10:35.920 -> 10:37.640] that they brought ahead, right? [10:37.640 -> 10:39.600] Yeah, they were supposed to be for next year [10:39.600 -> 10:41.960] and they wound up pulling them ahead for, [10:41.960 -> 10:44.640] I think they cited safety concerns with the loading [10:44.640 -> 10:47.340] that was going into the current sidewall tire. [10:47.340 -> 10:49.260] So there's still kind of these big cushy [10:49.260 -> 10:52.740] 18 inch combination here, [10:52.740 -> 10:55.580] but now they've stiffened up that kind of nice [10:55.580 -> 10:58.680] squishy sprung mass at the end of the suspension [10:58.680 -> 10:59.800] and the end of the axle. [10:59.800 -> 11:03.300] So I think understanding that's going to be key as well [11:03.300 -> 11:06.000] to not only their momentum, but [11:06.000 -> 11:09.920] I think the rest of the field as well and how it affects their setup windows and their [11:09.920 -> 11:14.720] car and their deck and all of that as we go track to track and they kind of get to finally [11:14.720 -> 11:15.720] see the full. [11:15.720 -> 11:21.760] I don't think we've seen the full like range yet of all six of that new sidewall. [11:21.760 -> 11:23.440] No, we haven't. [11:23.440 -> 11:25.760] And you know, speaking of getting your heads around [11:25.760 -> 11:27.000] how the tire's gonna perform, [11:27.000 -> 11:29.280] one of the teams that's been complaining [11:29.280 -> 11:31.920] about the new tires and how it's affected their performance [11:31.920 -> 11:33.360] has been Aston Martin. [11:33.360 -> 11:36.880] We talked about that a bit, kind of their performance, [11:36.880 -> 11:38.880] really from the start of the year to now, [11:38.880 -> 11:41.240] they've gone backwards, which is quite surprising. [11:41.240 -> 11:43.480] I think it was the Canada update that they said [11:43.480 -> 11:47.160] maybe didn't quite work or took them a step backwards. [11:47.160 -> 11:50.180] So I'm curious to see if they're able to do anything [11:50.180 -> 11:51.440] with that, I think in Zandvoort, [11:51.440 -> 11:53.040] they said they're gonna have a few upgrades, [11:53.040 -> 11:54.800] maybe try to call that back. [11:54.800 -> 11:57.320] Yeah, I'm really, really excited to see what they bring [11:57.320 -> 11:59.980] to Zandvoort because they brought this upgrade package [11:59.980 -> 12:03.920] to Canada and it seemed like they were very puzzled [12:03.920 -> 12:05.040] by the fact that it didn't work [12:05.040 -> 12:10.440] as intended and they fell back pretty pretty heavily and it seemed like in the [12:10.440 -> 12:14.680] races following they were trying different combinations of things and [12:14.680 -> 12:22.360] trying to make it work and trying to see what they could do to make that car as [12:22.360 -> 12:26.540] fast as it was and they still didn't get much success leading up [12:26.540 -> 12:30.660] to the summer break. It kind of almost reminds me of like Ferrari and Mercedes [12:30.660 -> 12:34.760] last season where they were trying like every combination of things they could. [12:34.760 -> 12:38.000] They were kind of going through these really wide setup windows it seemed like. [12:38.000 -> 12:41.920] They were trying a lot of stuff in the practice sessions as well before they [12:41.920 -> 12:47.460] would get to park for May. I have no idea what was going on back at the factory, but I'm sure that there was a lot of late-night [12:47.460 -> 12:51.160] sim sessions, a lot of sim sessions going on, a lot of analysis work happening too [12:51.160 -> 12:56.200] to try and figure that out. So I'm really really curious to see what the upgrade [12:56.200 -> 13:00.400] package is gonna look like to see what they either swap out and what they bring [13:00.400 -> 13:04.840] or what they keep from the Canada update or if they kind of roll back completely [13:04.840 -> 13:07.600] to that faster package and see where that goes. [13:07.600 -> 13:11.260] It's obvious that they're bringing a combination of something and I'm really looking forward [13:11.260 -> 13:15.740] to seeing what that was because that was an exceptional car at the start of the season. [13:15.740 -> 13:16.800] It really was. [13:16.800 -> 13:24.340] And it's hard to say, you know, has Aston Martin gone backwards or have the other teams [13:24.340 -> 13:26.680] just advanced faster? [13:26.680 -> 13:34.000] That's one of the hardest things I think in Formula One is to really understand at which pace everybody's really truly moving. [13:34.000 -> 13:40.400] But Mercedes, you know, Mercedes had the big package they just rolled out recently. [13:40.400 -> 13:42.400] I'm forgetting exactly where they...was it... [13:42.400 -> 13:49.240] Where did they rule out the what the latest one was it the British Grand Prix [13:51.840 -> 13:53.120] I [13:53.120 -> 13:54.720] Think it was Silverstone [13:54.720 -> 14:01.480] I mean it's been they've had so many freaking upgrades on that car at so many races and we've been hearing about this [14:01.600 -> 14:08.960] Expected upgrade package. I do think it was Silverstone though that the big, the Y-pod made its debut. That sounds about [14:08.960 -> 14:13.260] right. Somebody can gladly tell us in our comments or tweet at us afterward if we [14:13.260 -> 14:16.780] were wrong, but I think it was Silverstone because that's what I was [14:16.780 -> 14:27.000] gonna say as well. I'm sure somebody will let us know if we are incorrect. Our Twitter is really great. It will not let us forget if we're wrong either. [14:27.000 -> 14:30.000] Just pretty sure it's SilverZone. [14:30.000 -> 14:32.000] I'll fact, start talking about the upgrade. [14:32.000 -> 14:35.000] I'll fact check us right now while you kick us off [14:35.000 -> 14:38.000] at talking about some of the Mercedes stuff. [14:38.000 -> 14:42.000] Yeah, the Mercedes for me was a really interesting one [14:42.000 -> 14:46.880] because for the longest time, really, I think I've been saying [14:46.880 -> 14:53.600] and I think Molly you've been on the record as well and others about you know the lack of a [14:53.600 -> 14:57.920] side pod and you know how is this really truly managing some of the drag that you're going to [14:57.920 -> 15:02.640] have on the rear tire and things like that aerodynamically and so what have they done? [15:02.640 -> 15:05.520] They've now beefed up the front undercut, [15:05.520 -> 15:10.800] added a side pod, which allows some front pressurization, which also helps to kind of [15:10.800 -> 15:16.120] manage the front tire wake. But then also at the rear of the car, they added this nice [15:16.120 -> 15:21.280] little scallop in the back part of the downwashing side pod, which they also have now, that is [15:21.280 -> 15:28.040] also doing a bit of pressurization, which I thought was really interesting. So for all the aero nerds that are listening right now, you [15:28.040 -> 15:32.000] you may know what I'm talking about. But when you allow that pressurization to [15:32.000 -> 15:36.880] develop, you also help to essentially create like almost like a it's almost [15:36.880 -> 15:41.200] like a pressure wall that helps keep things away from the rear of the car. And [15:41.200 -> 15:47.840] so they may be able to kind of keep some of that trash, some of that dirty wash from the front tire [15:47.840 -> 15:49.160] or from other parts of the car, [15:49.160 -> 15:52.480] especially in y'all away from the rear corner [15:52.480 -> 15:55.560] and the rear end, the beam wings [15:55.560 -> 15:57.320] over the top of the diffuser, all those things. [15:57.320 -> 16:00.600] So I think Mercedes has definitely taken a step [16:00.600 -> 16:03.340] in the right direction with this upgrade for sure. [16:03.340 -> 16:05.060] Was it Monaco? [16:05.060 -> 16:07.200] I think it was Monaco actually. [16:07.200 -> 16:09.060] I think Monaco is when they came out [16:09.060 -> 16:13.100] with the first down washing kind of side pod concept. [16:13.100 -> 16:17.760] And maybe it was then the British Grand Prix [16:17.760 -> 16:20.140] where they did the whole rest of the scalloping [16:20.140 -> 16:22.340] and tuning and stuff for the side pod. [16:22.340 -> 16:30.800] Because I see the first iteration of it, Mon and then yeah the British Grand Prix and then um Spa they brought like kind of a further [16:30.800 -> 16:38.160] kind of tweak to the bumps so I think it started in Monaco. Yeah three three side pods right didn't [16:38.160 -> 16:46.480] we say three side pods? We did and so that makes it five total for the season? Is that five? Okay, yeah. I've never been very good at math. [16:46.480 -> 16:48.480] Because they started with the zero pod. [16:48.480 -> 16:53.200] I can't do math unless there's numbers and unknown variables in it. [16:53.200 -> 16:58.880] So it would have been, they started the season with the high pod, [16:58.880 -> 17:01.680] then they went to the 0.5 pod as the launch spec, [17:01.680 -> 17:04.000] then they went to like the wide pod, [17:04.000 -> 17:06.520] and then they've done two more iterations of the wide pod. [17:06.520 -> 17:08.820] So they're at five side pods then. [17:08.820 -> 17:11.460] Yeah. So they're, they're really going through it [17:11.460 -> 17:13.800] with side pod iterations here. [17:13.800 -> 17:14.640] Which I think- [17:14.640 -> 17:17.660] They have as many side pods as Ferrari has rear wings. [17:17.660 -> 17:22.660] I thought you were about to say power units. [17:24.100 -> 17:26.280] No. Oh, I wouldn't dare. [17:26.780 -> 17:27.720] I'll say it then. [17:27.720 -> 17:30.780] They have as many side pods as Ferrari does power units. [17:30.820 -> 17:33.760] I'm the power unit one year, so I can say it. [17:34.760 -> 17:36.720] You can say it. You know. [17:38.620 -> 17:40.960] Speaking of power units though. [17:40.960 -> 17:43.400] Oh no. Speaking of power units, [17:43.400 -> 17:47.120] I wanted to ask you what your thoughts were about the kind of the [17:47.120 -> 17:52.600] relative strength of the powertrains on the grid because I think generally you [17:52.600 -> 17:56.760] know there was a feeling for hey we're not afraid to be wrong about things I [17:56.760 -> 18:01.720] think people can probably already yeah people can already pick up on this you [18:01.720 -> 18:05.400] know we like to have these conversations, but generally [18:05.400 -> 18:08.760] speaking, what are your thoughts about kind of like, what's the pecking order as far as [18:08.760 -> 18:13.480] powertrains on the grid? There was some just some discussions about maybe Mercedes lacking [18:13.480 -> 18:19.160] in pace. Maybe it was just a drag issue, possibly. I don't know. What are your thoughts? [18:19.160 -> 18:25.600] So my like, definitive and like, I'll gladly own this, I'm going to do that whole Vine where it's like, [18:25.600 -> 18:31.760] you look at me and tell me that I'm wrong. Am I wrong? I'm fine with having further [18:31.760 -> 18:37.760] discussions about this. But I really think, and based on what we've seen and data, [18:37.760 -> 18:44.240] Ferrari is the fastest, most power, however, it is unreliable. It's that whole, do you build a [18:44.240 -> 18:45.840] fast but unreliable machine [18:45.840 -> 18:52.960] or a machine that's not as fast but extremely reliable. So I think that Ferrari is like top of [18:52.960 -> 18:57.760] the packing order regardless. They have the most power, they're just very unreliable, and I think [18:57.760 -> 19:01.840] they're working through some of that issues, but I think that their cars are really inefficient so [19:01.840 -> 19:09.360] we don't often get to see the full strength. and i think we know that from last season as well when they did detune for whatever reason this [19:09.360 -> 19:13.440] really is the most powerful unit on the grid. i think we can see that in telemetry as well. [19:15.040 -> 19:21.360] next i'm trying to run down through this. i think bottom of the barrel is for sure alpine, [19:22.160 -> 19:25.080] but i think kind of the bottom rung of manufacturers is pretty [19:25.080 -> 19:29.680] close. And I think we know this not only from the data of the cars, I mean they're [19:29.680 -> 19:33.760] struggling with their cars for other reasons, but the recent news about like [19:33.760 -> 19:38.880] kind of trying to balance the field a little bit more. It's they're down I [19:38.880 -> 19:43.000] think 30 to 50 horsepower on the rest of the field. And even then the rest of the [19:43.000 -> 19:48.120] field is still down on Ferrari in terms of horsepower. So I think that they're probably the [19:48.120 -> 19:51.820] worst, and they've been the worst for a while. Alpine, I'm really sorry, but [19:51.820 -> 19:58.360] that's just how it is. I think kind of in close to that, I would say we've got [19:58.360 -> 20:03.980] probably, I would say Red Bull would be next. We know this, we've seen this in the [20:03.980 -> 20:06.560] data, that they are not the fastest on the grid. [20:06.560 -> 20:08.920] I've said this in other locations as well. [20:08.920 -> 20:14.960] In combination with their low drag on their car, it winds up looking a lot faster because [20:14.960 -> 20:16.760] they are, it's the whole system. [20:16.760 -> 20:20.880] They might not have the fastest power, but that's not what it's about in Formula One. [20:20.880 -> 20:24.140] It's really about the whole system with your drag, your downforce levels, how everything [20:24.140 -> 20:26.060] is working together. So they're really low [20:26.060 -> 20:30.380] drag and optimized aero of the car really make that power unit look a lot [20:30.380 -> 20:34.740] faster than it is because it's never really been about your peak torque, your [20:34.740 -> 20:38.740] peak power. It's really the combination like I'm saying and so they look a lot [20:38.740 -> 20:42.660] faster than they are but if you go and look at the raw data they don't really [20:42.660 -> 20:45.000] have in my opinion this one of the stronger power units on the grid. I think that they are still definitely leaps and bounds ahead the raw data, they don't really have, in my opinion, [20:47.040 -> 20:49.520] this one of the stronger power units on the grid. I think that they are still definitely leaps and bounds ahead of Alpine, [20:49.520 -> 20:52.280] but they're still not up there with like what Ferrari can do. [20:52.680 -> 20:57.680] And then I still really think Mercedes has the next best one on the grid. [20:58.120 -> 21:03.440] Um, under Ferrari, I do think what you were saying with kind of having [21:03.440 -> 21:07.960] really dragging inefficient cars, wasn't allowing them to really show what they're capable of. [21:07.960 -> 21:13.280] They've always had kind of a not as fast but incredibly reliable power unit and [21:13.280 -> 21:16.320] when it's in the right system and everything is balanced it's very fast. [21:16.320 -> 21:21.280] Just like the Red Bull like I was saying where if it it doesn't have to be the [21:21.280 -> 21:27.180] fastest but in combination with the system it can be fast. And so I think with what we saw with Aston Martin [21:27.180 -> 21:29.640] coming out of the gate this season, [21:29.640 -> 21:32.040] was a true testament to that power unit speed [21:32.040 -> 21:34.240] that's also gearboxed by them as well. [21:34.240 -> 21:39.240] And now the Mercedes kind of figuring their issues out. [21:39.360 -> 21:40.660] Hey, they're back up there. [21:40.660 -> 21:43.280] And then also with McLaren, [21:43.280 -> 21:46.080] they're also giving Ferrari Run for money their money [21:46.080 -> 21:55.040] or outdoing Ferrari and so I think that when you look at Renault, Honda, Mercedes and Ferrari [21:55.040 -> 22:00.560] your four suppliers right now like it's that's kind of the pecking order is it's Ferrari, Mercedes, [22:00.560 -> 22:07.360] Honda, Renault are like my order and I'm there's not five I'm like second guessing this for some reason I'm like am I forgetting somebody? [22:07.360 -> 22:07.860] Alpine, yeah. [22:07.860 -> 22:08.360] But I am not forgetting. [22:08.360 -> 22:15.480] But it's Renault yeah I'm thinking Alpine but it's still Renault so I think that that's kind of my [22:15.480 -> 22:19.640] pecking order based on what we've seen so far not only with the frees coming in [22:19.640 -> 22:22.520] last season but kind of where we stand it at halfway. [22:22.520 -> 22:25.680] Yeah I would I would agree with that assessment. I think you're [22:25.680 -> 22:31.040] spot on with that. I'm glad you brought up the whole package because recently Fred Vasseur [22:31.040 -> 22:36.160] is on record about talking about, for instance, like the Red Bull and there's been this whole, [22:36.800 -> 22:42.160] gosh, it makes me start to squirm when I see people posting about triple DRSs and all these [22:42.160 -> 22:45.040] like magical things. And you know, when I talk to- [22:45.040 -> 22:47.040] You like roll my eyes and close X. [22:47.040 -> 22:49.400] Yeah, I know. [22:49.400 -> 22:52.120] And it's so bad, but hey, it gets clicks. [22:52.120 -> 22:52.960] Oh my God. [22:52.960 -> 22:56.440] But you know, when I talk to different aerodynamicists, [22:56.440 -> 22:58.160] we all, we laugh about it. [22:58.160 -> 22:59.760] But I think at the end of the day, [22:59.760 -> 23:01.400] Fred Visser made a really good point. [23:01.400 -> 23:05.440] What he said was, look, the Red Bull car is just, [23:05.440 -> 23:08.320] it's not incredible in any single one thing. [23:08.320 -> 23:10.340] It's exactly what you've said there, Molly. [23:10.340 -> 23:13.040] It's just really good at all the little small things [23:13.040 -> 23:14.200] that all sort of add up. [23:14.200 -> 23:15.080] And on top of that, [23:15.080 -> 23:17.960] you also look at like their pit stop performances. [23:17.960 -> 23:20.260] You know, they haven't had any reliability issues [23:20.260 -> 23:21.920] like they had at the start of last year. [23:21.920 -> 23:23.480] So I think generally speaking, [23:23.480 -> 23:24.320] it's totally the most well rounded car. [23:24.320 -> 23:27.160] Well, they've had drive shaft issues. [23:27.160 -> 23:29.000] They are having some torque delivery issues, I would say. [23:29.000 -> 23:31.240] Right, at the start of the year, right, yeah. [23:31.240 -> 23:33.800] Yeah, and I think that there still is some complaints [23:33.800 -> 23:36.960] with shifts and gear sinks and then drive shafts, [23:36.960 -> 23:39.360] but it's not power unit. [23:39.360 -> 23:40.640] It's not control electronics. [23:40.640 -> 23:42.920] It's not things going boom, [23:42.920 -> 23:51.560] like we have had in other not as reliable power units, but they've had some stuff that's more on like the torque [23:51.560 -> 23:57.640] delivery side rather than what we've seen from some of the other cars. [23:57.640 -> 24:00.780] Yeah and interestingly some of the things we've seen from some of the other cars [24:00.780 -> 24:09.640] you know I think at different tracks have been more brake temp management. I know, I think it was in Canada, there was potentially some [24:09.640 -> 24:13.920] issues with brake temp management that were going on with the Mercedes, right? I [24:13.920 -> 24:19.080] think, maybe it was the McLaren in a different race as well that maybe was [24:19.080 -> 24:22.520] having some break. There's been a lot of lifting coasts that's been going on by [24:22.520 -> 24:25.120] different teams. [24:27.040 -> 24:28.320] That's kind of surprising. Yeah, and we've been seeing, I think, [24:28.320 -> 24:32.820] an increasing complexity of brake duct winglets [24:32.820 -> 24:35.600] and air direction to keep things, [24:35.600 -> 24:37.840] not only a vortex generated across the rear [24:37.840 -> 24:40.440] and those components in like rear brakes, [24:40.440 -> 24:42.900] but I think we're seeing an increased complexity [24:42.900 -> 24:44.200] around just the brakes in general [24:44.200 -> 24:48.120] to try and manage what's not spec but try to manage the [24:48.120 -> 24:54.680] spec component the best they can. Yeah and inside the cake tin of the Aston [24:54.680 -> 24:59.440] Martin you see all those little winglets that they have kind of those cascading [24:59.440 -> 25:02.280] winglets it's almost like a multi-element wing they've put on the [25:02.280 -> 25:06.740] inside in between the cake tin tin and sort of the outer cooling [25:07.420 -> 25:11.420] Drum or whatever you want to call it, but yeah, I think it was last season [25:11.640 -> 25:12.800] Yeah [25:12.800 -> 25:17.900] Yeah, this season McLaren or last season McLaren on the rear they have those like overlapped kind of [25:18.660 -> 25:23.540] Ones as well between the keg tin and the shaft and the duct as well [25:23.820 -> 25:26.720] So I think that that's I think a bigger story [25:28.000 -> 25:33.520] in like kind of that sense than some of the other stuff. I think managing that's a big one. [25:33.520 -> 25:37.840] Yeah definitely. So you know it's been a good first half of the season and second half of the [25:37.840 -> 25:44.640] season is coming. What are you know maybe some things that we might be able to expect or at [25:44.640 -> 25:46.360] least what are some things you might be looking for [25:46.360 -> 25:48.440] for the second half of the season? [25:48.440 -> 25:49.880] Second half of the season, [25:49.880 -> 25:53.440] I definitely am really curious to see [25:53.440 -> 25:57.000] if we see any further big like iterations, [25:57.000 -> 25:59.520] if we do see overhauls of anything else [25:59.520 -> 26:03.240] or things that the teams will start to try for 2024, [26:03.240 -> 26:04.640] which I think we're gonna talk about, [26:04.640 -> 26:07.720] but I think we do know some teams have already pivoted. So are there gonna [26:07.720 -> 26:11.840] be some things teams bring in free practices as the season kind of goes [26:11.840 -> 26:17.920] that they're gonna want to try, but I think do we see anybody who has I guess [26:17.920 -> 26:23.840] kind of saved their cadence of upgrades or has pushed their cadence of upgrades [26:23.840 -> 26:25.060] into the second half [26:25.060 -> 26:29.180] of the season which I don't really know if anybody has. I think a lot of teams [26:29.180 -> 26:33.180] have front-loaded that. I think it'll be maybe more pieces here and there but I [26:33.180 -> 26:37.540] am really curious to see if somebody does bring like a whole system like [26:37.540 -> 26:41.840] something big like what McLaren did like what Mercedes did if there's anything [26:41.840 -> 26:48.120] else big coming at least personally and then I'm also really excited, I don't think we've seen Monza specs. [26:48.120 -> 26:51.920] I'm excited for low downforce specs at Monza, if we haven't seen them yet. [26:51.920 -> 26:53.640] So I'm really interested in that. [26:53.640 -> 26:54.640] They're coming. [26:54.640 -> 26:55.640] Who's going to win that war? [26:55.640 -> 26:56.640] Yeah, I'm really excited. [26:56.640 -> 26:59.240] That's always one of my favorite races, to see what teams bring. [26:59.240 -> 27:03.320] I think that'll be a really good show of power units and all of that as well. [27:03.320 -> 27:08.720] But I think that's kind of where I'm looking is I'm really curious to see how the development cadence [27:08.720 -> 27:10.780] has played out because did you come too hot, [27:10.780 -> 27:12.040] too fast out of the gate, [27:12.040 -> 27:13.460] or did you kind of play it right [27:13.460 -> 27:15.220] that you're able to keep up with your competition [27:15.220 -> 27:18.940] as they did their kind of cadence through the season? [27:18.940 -> 27:22.540] Yeah, and I think what you mentioned about sort of, [27:22.540 -> 27:26.240] you know, bringing upgrades or focusing on 2024 [27:26.240 -> 27:28.640] is also gonna be a really interesting thing to follow [27:28.640 -> 27:30.520] for some of the teams that might be looking [27:30.520 -> 27:35.520] for more substantial changes to their 2024 car. [27:35.960 -> 27:38.580] I think probably those teams are really going [27:38.580 -> 27:42.560] to not bring anything further, but really focus on 2024, [27:42.560 -> 27:45.120] because maybe the upgrades they might make on this car [27:45.120 -> 27:50.680] might not translate to 2024. So that might be an indication for some of those [27:50.680 -> 27:54.400] teams that look, you know, this particular team might actually be making a bigger [27:54.400 -> 27:58.220] step change next year. Yeah and I think it's important to keep in mind cost as [27:58.220 -> 28:02.320] well. Who has cost in this year to be able to do some of that as well and to [28:02.320 -> 28:07.380] continue that late into the season with either late changes or stuff for next year. [28:07.380 -> 28:09.780] Like who has the budget that they could try something where they're like, [28:09.780 -> 28:12.380] you know, we don't know if it's going to translate, but we want to try it anyway. [28:12.380 -> 28:15.620] You know, who has that kind of in their budget available as well? [28:15.620 -> 28:19.460] Yeah, yeah. And probably a good time, you know, just to, [28:19.460 -> 28:23.160] because we are a tech podcast, just to explain to some of the listeners about [28:23.160 -> 28:26.160] 2023 upgrades feeding into 2024 [28:26.160 -> 28:31.280] upgrades and why, for instance, you know, some teams like Mercedes have said anything that we're [28:31.280 -> 28:37.840] doing that's upgrading the car this year could translate to 2024. And the reason is because, [28:37.840 -> 28:41.680] you know, if you're not significantly changing the aerodynamic platform of the car, [28:42.320 -> 28:46.760] then basically the core fundamentals of the aero features [28:46.760 -> 28:49.200] on the car are going to be the same. [28:49.200 -> 28:53.480] So you might make minor modifications, minor changes here and there, but it's not changing, [28:53.480 -> 29:00.120] say, the overall aero structures all around the car significantly enough to where it doesn't [29:00.120 -> 29:06.480] translate to 2023 2024 but this is why I mentioned that you know if somebody's gonna come out with [29:06.480 -> 29:14.720] say a you know like for like Mercedes when they went from the no pod or the the half pod to like [29:14.720 -> 29:23.360] the pod the fifth pod that they have now um you know with I mean with with with that sort of a [29:23.360 -> 29:29.760] translation if they had if they planned something like that for 2024, it would be very difficult for them, [29:29.760 -> 29:32.960] I think, to make upgrades this year and then have them still translate. [29:33.280 -> 29:38.160] And I think one of the things that I'm expecting, so, you know, [29:38.200 -> 29:40.360] I might be wrong. I'm not afraid to be wrong, [29:40.380 -> 29:44.200] but one of the things that I'm expecting is that they will get rid of the CIS wing. [29:45.160 -> 29:46.460] Um, because the, yeah, but one of the things that I'm expecting is that they will get rid of the cis wing. Yeah, I agree. [29:46.460 -> 29:50.100] Yeah, the side impact structure is integrated into this downwashing wing. [29:50.900 -> 29:54.500] And now that they have the side pod, it really doesn't make as much sense anymore. [29:54.500 -> 30:00.820] And so I think they're going to move away from that next year. They can't do that this year because it will change the... [30:01.540 -> 30:06.080] Do you have to re-homologate the entire monocoque? [30:06.080 -> 30:09.360] yeah you have to go with this is which is so [30:09.360 -> 30:12.800] kind of like frustrating and crazy to me because [30:12.800 -> 30:16.400] they have to go back through and re-homologate the entire [30:16.400 -> 30:20.960] monocoque if they change the location of that and where it's integrated. there's a [30:20.960 -> 30:26.720] regulation box it has to fit in and they're using it's a spec design of cis. [30:26.720 -> 30:30.080] It comes from Red Bull Technologies or the team can build it [30:30.080 -> 30:33.840] and it has to meet the following spec. It's all in the regulations. But my big [30:33.840 -> 30:41.280] like crux with this is there's no test in homologation for side impact. [30:41.280 -> 30:44.480] There is a side intrusion test to make sure that your [30:44.480 -> 30:46.160] monocoque can withstand [30:46.160 -> 30:50.240] intrusions from the side. So like um if anybody's familiar with what happened to James Hinchcliffe [30:50.240 -> 30:54.320] in IndyCar where his suspension came through the tub and actually skewered him into the car, [30:54.880 -> 30:58.960] um like they make sure that your tub there's intrusion tests there, it doesn't puncture, [30:58.960 -> 31:04.480] and it's like a burst test, puncture, and all of that. There's no true side impact test to test [31:07.680 -> 31:11.520] test, puncture, and all of that, there's no true side impact test to test your CIS and your CIPS, or whatever you want to call it. I call them CIPS, which is Side Impact Protection Structure. [31:11.520 -> 31:17.360] There's no true side impact test in homologation that tests that location and tests that that [31:17.360 -> 31:22.160] location within the regulation box is okay. So I don't really get why they have to go back through [31:22.160 -> 31:25.500] and re-homologate if they don't actually do anything for it. [31:25.800 -> 31:31.420] But that's like kind of my whole crux of the issue there, which is also mind boggling that they don't do that. [31:31.800 -> 31:33.220] But that's the whole thing. [31:33.220 -> 31:37.560] They'll have to go back through and have it approved and re-homologated. [31:37.560 -> 31:38.800] Homologation is not cheap. [31:38.800 -> 31:41.360] Homologation is time intensive as well. [31:41.720 -> 31:45.200] So between time and money, they likely couldn't do it this year, [31:45.200 -> 31:49.440] so they're working around it. That's right, and for some of our listeners that might not know, [31:50.000 -> 31:55.600] there is a front impact that is part of the tests that need to be done as part of the homologation. [31:55.600 -> 31:59.520] I believe there's also a rear impact as well for the rear impact structure. Yes, front and rear [31:59.520 -> 32:05.080] there are. Yeah, but no side impact as you mentioned, which is really scary. [32:05.080 -> 32:10.760] If you look at, and I hate to use this, it's so macabre, but if you look at the, I'm in [32:10.760 -> 32:18.840] like safety mode brain, if you look at the trends of significant injuries and deaths [32:18.840 -> 32:23.840] that have occurred in open wheel cars, it is a side impact. [32:23.840 -> 32:26.180] And at least the most recent ones have been. [32:26.180 -> 32:31.180] And so it's just mind boggling that your last occurrences [32:31.620 -> 32:33.360] or your occurrences have this trend [32:33.360 -> 32:34.420] and there's still nothing for it. [32:34.420 -> 32:35.440] Maybe there's something coming, [32:35.440 -> 32:36.280] maybe they're looking into it, [32:36.280 -> 32:38.580] but the fact that there is nothing for it, [32:38.580 -> 32:41.760] considering the history with side impact we've had so far, [32:41.760 -> 32:42.620] it's shocking. [32:42.620 -> 32:48.800] There is front, there's rear, and there's intrusion tests, but there is not a true side impact test. [32:48.800 -> 32:52.160] Yeah, I'm with you there. I think it is very shocking. So, [32:52.160 -> 32:55.520] you know, speaking of the second half of the season, there's been some [32:55.520 -> 33:01.040] discussions about DRS. Lots of, yeah, lots of people [33:01.040 -> 33:06.720] talking about, you know, potentially removing DRS from qualifying, [33:06.720 -> 33:07.720] for instance. [33:07.720 -> 33:13.160] There's still continues to be conversations about, do we need DRS at all? [33:13.160 -> 33:16.480] Do we need to move to some kind of like a push to pass sort of a thing now? [33:16.480 -> 33:19.040] What are your thoughts on this whole thing? [33:19.040 -> 33:26.040] So I think we do still need DRS with this current gen car until we have a better [33:26.040 -> 33:29.840] handle on the dirty air. I think we've talked about this in other forums where [33:29.840 -> 33:35.520] they've improved the dirty air, but there is still a downforce loss on a [33:35.520 -> 33:40.960] trailing car because of their proximity to the wake that's still created. Because [33:40.960 -> 33:45.400] it does kick it up and out of the way. It does that in a quicker fashion [33:45.400 -> 33:48.920] than the previous generation, but there's still wake and still downforce loss [33:48.920 -> 33:53.560] across a trailing car that they're still struggling with. And so I think [33:53.560 -> 33:59.200] they need DRS still in some capacity until there is a better handle on that. [33:59.200 -> 34:03.280] And I don't really, I think the series is kind of leaving that up to the teams [34:03.280 -> 34:08.480] which is really frustrating to see because NASCAR is having the same exact problem with a ground effect car right [34:08.480 -> 34:13.040] now. And the series is testing under wings and different diffuser combinations and they're [34:13.040 -> 34:17.920] actively testing and working with the teams to try and find a way to improve that downforce loss and [34:17.920 -> 34:24.400] that wake kick out so the trailing cars don't have that problem. Which is really cool to see play out [34:24.400 -> 34:26.340] and they're being very transparent about it. [34:26.340 -> 34:29.000] But it's like the same problem that Formula One is having. [34:29.000 -> 34:30.680] And I think until they correct that [34:30.680 -> 34:33.000] or find a better way to manage that, [34:33.000 -> 34:34.840] I think they still need it. [34:34.840 -> 34:38.200] I am 100% on team, make it like Push to Pass. [34:38.200 -> 34:39.520] I love Push to Pass, [34:39.520 -> 34:41.640] the strategic elements that it has in IndyCar. [34:41.640 -> 34:44.200] I have said this on my platform, [34:44.200 -> 34:45.520] I've said this to other people, I've said this to other people. [34:45.520 -> 34:47.040] I've said this on other podcasts. [34:47.040 -> 34:48.600] Make DRS like push to pass, [34:48.600 -> 34:51.080] which is a limited number of presses [34:51.080 -> 34:53.320] and when you use it and duration per race. [34:53.320 -> 34:56.520] So like IndyCar is 150 seconds of it. [34:56.520 -> 34:58.720] You get it in five second spurts [34:58.720 -> 35:01.960] and you can stay on that button as long as you want [35:01.960 -> 35:03.560] or not as you want. [35:03.560 -> 35:05.840] And so you can have some at the end, you can use it all in [35:05.840 -> 35:10.400] the front, and then maintain good track position. You can use it on a lap to really push and try [35:10.400 -> 35:14.640] and build a gap if you're trying to pit and not lose positions and get undercut. So I think that [35:14.640 -> 35:19.520] there's a really good strategic element to push to pass that I would love to see come in into play [35:19.520 -> 35:26.160] with DRS, but I don't know what you think about that compared to like my stances. I'm with you there, Molly. [35:26.160 -> 35:31.600] I am also on the push to pass train, the hype train. [35:31.600 -> 35:37.200] I think that would be a good addition, you know, in a way to use that. [35:37.200 -> 35:41.440] But I think also like I was watching British Touring Car Championship, you know, being [35:41.440 -> 35:47.440] here in the UK and they handicap their, they call it hybrid. Um, [35:47.480 -> 35:49.600] they handicap their hybrid duration. [35:49.600 -> 35:52.840] So what they do is that if you're lower in the constructor's standings, [35:53.160 -> 35:55.600] you get more during the race. [35:55.600 -> 35:58.040] And if you're higher in the constructor's standings, you get less. [35:58.040 -> 35:59.880] So they handicap the amount that you get. [36:00.320 -> 36:05.280] It was just one way to sort of maybe pull the pack up a bit closer. [36:05.280 -> 36:07.720] So that's an interesting element as well. [36:07.720 -> 36:10.980] You know, could you do something like that as well with sort of this push to pass? [36:10.980 -> 36:13.480] It's interesting to think about it that way too. [36:13.480 -> 36:14.840] I kind of really like that. [36:14.840 -> 36:17.600] So you have people that are like, oh, reverse the grid, do all this stuff. [36:17.600 -> 36:22.200] Like that could actually be a way to do it just like the sliding scale of wind tunnel [36:22.200 -> 36:27.760] time and aero testing and CFD time, like let the scale slide of [36:27.760 -> 36:31.880] push to pass, which would actually be really interesting to think about with the gaps that [36:31.880 -> 36:37.400] we see, especially through the midfield, with the midfield being so tight now. [36:37.400 -> 36:40.540] And then you have the big jump to the top three, like that would be very interesting [36:40.540 -> 36:44.080] to think about how would that help pull the field up even closer too. [36:44.080 -> 36:47.740] I didn't even think about the BTCC option which is British Touring Car [36:47.740 -> 36:52.680] for anybody unaware. So that's actually a good thought as well. I mean I'm also [36:52.680 -> 36:57.720] I'm a big sports car girl and a lot of people are gonna hate me saying it I'm a [36:57.720 -> 37:02.920] big bop girl. Like it gets political and I don't think I don't think the landscape [37:02.920 -> 37:08.480] for Formula One is correct for bop. I think that that could be a similar approach. [37:08.480 -> 37:11.160] It's coming with the 2026 power unit regulations. [37:11.160 -> 37:13.120] If you're lower than 3%, they'll make adjustments, [37:13.120 -> 37:14.800] you get extra time, all that good stuff. [37:14.800 -> 37:16.400] But, and they're kind of talking about [37:16.400 -> 37:17.840] this engine rebalance too, [37:17.840 -> 37:22.760] where there might actually be some bopping potentially, [37:22.760 -> 37:26.800] or ways to speed up and slow other engines down to try and rebalance things. [37:26.800 -> 37:32.600] But I don't think the landscape is right for something like that where you could use how well you're doing in the races [37:32.600 -> 37:38.200] as a way to determine your DRS or your hybrid output with like power to weight ratio. [37:38.200 -> 37:47.960] So I think that that's, there's some sort of combination between I I think, like constructors championship finish order. I really like that. And then the, like the push to pass type of system [37:47.960 -> 37:50.040] that would, that I think would work well. [37:50.040 -> 37:52.600] It's definitely not like a one size fits all solution, [37:52.600 -> 37:54.600] but I think that there are things out there [37:54.600 -> 37:56.260] that they can look at and leverage [37:56.260 -> 37:58.300] that would actually work much more successfully [37:58.300 -> 38:00.000] than the current system. [38:00.000 -> 38:03.560] And I guess my only issue with the BOP sort of a thing [38:03.560 -> 38:05.360] is that it's just sort of like dragging an [38:05.360 -> 38:11.840] anchor for the whole race versus like yeah where you're using like a handicap kind of push to pass [38:11.840 -> 38:17.440] like you said it does become more strategic because so so it does allow for maybe some [38:17.440 -> 38:25.760] more exciting race strategy which speaking of we have Zanvort coming up this weekend and last year... [38:25.760 -> 38:26.760] I'm so excited! [38:26.760 -> 38:29.000] Yeah, hey how about that segue? [38:29.000 -> 38:30.000] And last year the race... [38:30.000 -> 38:31.000] Oh, that was perfect. [38:31.000 -> 38:32.240] That was a good one, wasn't it? [38:32.240 -> 38:37.640] And last year the race in Zandvoort was actually, had a lot of strategy to it. [38:37.640 -> 38:43.960] You know, I mean, George Russell ended up P2 in the W13, which is saying something, [38:43.960 -> 38:46.680] but a lot of it was done on strategy to get [38:46.680 -> 38:51.680] to get him there, right? So I think this is another race where we could be seeing [38:51.680 -> 38:58.000] a lot of strategic things. I agree. Yeah, you know, during qualifying I think it [38:58.000 -> 39:05.000] was that there was 0.021 seconds between LeClaire and Max Verstappen. [39:06.840 -> 39:07.680] Yes, it was close. [39:07.680 -> 39:08.880] During qualifier. Something like that. [39:08.880 -> 39:11.200] It was very close, yeah. [39:11.200 -> 39:12.680] And I think there was three tenths [39:12.680 -> 39:14.200] between the top four as well. [39:14.200 -> 39:17.800] So, that Zanvort only has one DRS zone. [39:17.800 -> 39:22.400] Yeah, so I think this is going to be a very interesting race. [39:22.400 -> 39:24.080] We're both just so excited about Zanvort. [39:24.080 -> 39:27.000] We're like, yes, oh my gosh, Zandvoort, let's talk about it. [39:27.000 -> 39:29.000] Yeah, yeah, no, you guys take over Molly. [39:29.000 -> 39:38.000] I think last year, and especially that one DRS, and I think this year, because we see such a efficiency difference in all of the cars, [39:38.000 -> 39:46.480] I think the lack of DRS at this track is going to make for some really exciting quali. And I'm actually very excited with how we have seen [39:46.480 -> 39:49.800] some folks kind of surprise us and show up in the field [39:49.800 -> 39:52.400] and how close the field has been in some of the rounds [39:52.400 -> 39:56.020] of quali where it's like, we have 0.1 seconds [39:56.020 -> 40:00.380] between P5 and P20 or something like crazy, like we've had. [40:00.380 -> 40:07.440] So I think that not only your strategy for qualifying, your track placement when you [40:07.440 -> 40:12.080] go out, your tire selection, and the track evolution there is going to be really key, [40:12.080 -> 40:16.360] but I think in the race it's going to be even more key. [40:16.360 -> 40:20.920] Because last year proved that it was really all about strategy in that race and how you [40:20.920 -> 40:25.200] kind of played out around your competition because it is a track position [40:25.200 -> 40:30.960] track. It has some good areas for passing but I think still with this current gen car it's really [40:30.960 -> 40:36.240] all about track position and how you are undercutting, overcutting, managing tires, [40:36.240 -> 40:41.920] and being agile I think in your strategy is really key here too because if your competition [40:41.920 -> 40:51.440] to something else are you sticking to your guns or are you going to pivot and cover or do you feel like you have an agile strategy here to kind of change as you go [40:51.440 -> 40:56.800] on the fly to kind of accommodate what's happening around you? Absolutely and we you know I think the [40:56.800 -> 41:01.920] softest tire that Pirelli's going to be running is the new kind of intermediate tire that was [41:01.920 -> 41:06.340] sort of in between the the softest last year and the medium last year. [41:06.340 -> 41:08.580] So it's sort of a new, [41:08.580 -> 41:11.340] it's kind of a new landscape for the teams as well [41:11.340 -> 41:14.860] to sort out kind of how the softest tire is going to run. [41:14.860 -> 41:18.100] But I am looking to see if Ferrari indeed [41:18.100 -> 41:21.820] have solved their tire degradation issues in Spa. [41:21.820 -> 41:23.100] They had very good signs. [41:23.100 -> 41:28.160] They had great tire degradation. So maybe, maybe they found something there. [41:28.160 -> 41:30.200] Let's see if it translates to Zandvoort. [41:30.400 -> 41:35.120] I know. Speaking of like new tires at racetracks, I know I have everything [41:35.120 -> 41:39.040] crossed that like we can see, um, you don't get free feet on this podcast. [41:39.040 -> 41:40.440] I'm sorry. Um, [41:41.280 -> 41:42.600] that's not that kind of show. [41:43.800 -> 41:45.560] No, it is not. [41:45.560 -> 41:49.800] I was going to say, speaking of tires and new tires [41:49.800 -> 41:53.120] at racetracks, IndyCar for the first time this weekend [41:53.120 -> 41:55.520] is bringing an alternate tire to the ovals, [41:55.520 -> 41:59.040] whereas like ovals, you have your one and you go for it. [41:59.040 -> 42:00.160] There's the oval tire. [42:00.160 -> 42:02.600] But now there's this new alternate rule coming, [42:02.600 -> 42:05.200] and you have to use both for a minimum of two laps. [42:05.200 -> 42:09.760] And so I think this race is going to really become who saves their alternates for the end [42:09.760 -> 42:14.160] because we know that those are going to be your sticky quick tires, especially in, [42:14.160 -> 42:18.720] oh, it's not a night race this year. Usually this is a night race. It's a day race now. [42:18.720 -> 42:30.040] So there's not the whole cooling track situation either. So I think it's gonna be really, really interesting to see what they do on their short oval at WWT Raceway this coming [42:30.040 -> 42:33.440] race as well. Side note, random we're talking about tire compounds and it [42:33.440 -> 42:36.920] popped into my brain, so that'll be one to watch too if you're into that as [42:36.920 -> 42:41.400] well. And that's perfect because you know we do have some IndyCar content that [42:41.400 -> 42:46.360] will be coming in future episodes, you know? And are you going to be spending any time [42:46.360 -> 42:48.440] at any races soon, Molly? [42:48.440 -> 42:52.320] So I just got back from the Nashville GP, [42:52.320 -> 42:53.680] which is the Music City Grand Prix. [42:53.680 -> 42:56.780] I have a ton of content that I filmed and did not post. [42:57.760 -> 42:59.200] And then I was peer pressured [42:59.200 -> 43:01.400] into the NASCAR IndyCar double header [43:01.400 -> 43:04.120] by some friends in the IndyCar paddock. [43:04.120 -> 43:07.120] And so I drove down to Indianapolis and did that as well. [43:07.120 -> 43:12.080] i was there on um some content filming too. i was more so there as a fan but i [43:12.080 -> 43:14.240] did film some stuff as well and i've been [43:14.240 -> 43:17.760] like full disclosure struggling with creator burnout where like filmed it, [43:17.760 -> 43:21.040] edited it, sits in my draft, and i'm like i hate that. [43:21.040 -> 43:25.600] what does it add to the conversation? so I do have some stuff and then I'm also [43:31.280 -> 43:38.160] maybe going to Laguna Seca. I'm talking with a couple people and I might get to go to the championship or might go. So if that plays out it will be there. So I will do some stuff there as [43:38.160 -> 43:49.600] well. But I do have some stuff sitting in drafts that will be coming from the races that I was just at. Very cool. So yeah, definitely I know we've talked some F1 on this particular [43:49.600 -> 43:53.620] episode. We will have more cross motorsport content that will be coming, [43:53.620 -> 43:59.040] but I think yeah it's been a been a good discussion of F1 season so far and what [43:59.040 -> 44:03.480] we might expect in the next race as well as the second half of the season. And I [44:03.480 -> 44:07.200] think we're going to pivot now to a Tech By segment. [44:07.200 -> 44:10.680] So our Tech By segment is a segment where Molly and I [44:10.680 -> 44:14.640] each get our chance to stand on our tech platform [44:14.640 -> 44:18.200] and talk about something that really interests us. [44:18.200 -> 44:20.220] And I know Molly, you're totally geeking [44:20.220 -> 44:22.600] about your tech topic today. [44:22.600 -> 44:24.440] Do you want to tell us all about it? [44:24.440 -> 44:28.000] Yes, AKA this is the session where you see Dr. Obbs [44:28.000 -> 44:30.000] and I be giant nerds about something in the world [44:30.000 -> 44:33.160] of motorsports as if we weren't already on main. [44:34.080 -> 44:38.860] So yeah, I was going to cover on my tech bias segment, [44:38.860 -> 44:40.260] actually the use of AI in racing. [44:40.260 -> 44:42.940] And I've talked about this in a lot of other places, [44:42.940 -> 44:44.560] but I got tagged in some tweets recently [44:44.560 -> 44:47.620] about our F1 teams using AI in any capacity [44:47.620 -> 44:51.540] and is there AI use happening in the Formula One paddock? [44:51.540 -> 44:56.500] And while we don't have confirmation of it exclusively, [44:56.500 -> 44:57.820] there is some stuff out there. [44:57.820 -> 45:01.340] I wanted to talk about kind of two really key pieces of AI [45:01.340 -> 45:03.100] happening in motorsports right now. [45:03.100 -> 45:11.200] So the first one is one that has been making their own for a little while now. It's called Pit Row, R-H-O, like the Greek [45:11.200 -> 45:15.460] symbol. And they were recently acquired by General Motors actually. And what they are [45:15.460 -> 45:21.000] is a machine learning platform that was originally designed to help like with Vegas odds. But [45:21.000 -> 45:25.760] what it's now become is a strategy calling machine in NASCAR. And what it does [45:25.760 -> 45:30.600] is in NASCAR, all of the team's telemetry is available. It's called SMT data to all [45:30.600 -> 45:35.600] of the teams in real time. And so what Chevrolet was doing when they partnered with Pit Row [45:35.600 -> 45:41.100] originally is they were feeding in not only their car's data, but the entire field's data. [45:41.100 -> 45:48.040] And then that virtual machine runs the game or the race over and over and over and over and over again to find the optimal strategy to [45:48.040 -> 45:52.440] win you the race. So in NASCAR when you pit you can change four tires, add fuel, [45:52.440 -> 45:58.080] two tires, add fuel, no tires, fuel only, tires, no fuel, there's a bunch of [45:58.080 -> 46:01.540] combinations of things that you can do in a NASCAR pit stop. And so what this [46:01.540 -> 46:05.240] model did is it would run your competition's data against [46:05.240 -> 46:09.040] yours, run your pit stop information over and over and over again and tell you how to [46:09.040 -> 46:14.720] win the race. So it would be like pit lap 83, take fuel only. Or it would tell you pit [46:14.720 -> 46:19.760] here, take four tires and fuel. And it's like the optimal result. And so there are actually [46:19.760 -> 46:25.800] like race wins that have come from calling the model. Ryan Newman run a race in 2017, [46:25.800 -> 46:28.160] Austin Dillon won a shock race with it. [46:28.160 -> 46:30.000] And so it's validated the model [46:30.000 -> 46:32.800] and it's continued to be used by Chevrolet. [46:32.800 -> 46:34.680] And it's kind of left Toyota and Ford [46:34.680 -> 46:36.820] to build their own tools and catch up. [46:36.820 -> 46:39.360] And now this tool has been acquired by General Motors [46:39.360 -> 46:41.720] for use across all of their racing series. [46:41.720 -> 46:43.720] They acquired it, I believe last year. [46:43.720 -> 46:48.900] And so they said in this release that their intention was to use it across everything that GM [46:48.900 -> 46:53.260] races in. And so they're using this AI tool to call NASCAR strategy and it's [46:53.260 -> 46:58.480] proven. So you could look to see it coming to things like WEC, IMSA, and IndyCar [46:58.480 -> 47:02.740] because those are the other three series that General Motors is in. Now for [47:02.740 -> 47:07.040] Formula One, there is something out there that I'm aware of [47:07.040 -> 47:14.720] with a company called Quantum Black. They are an arm of McKinsey and Company and they are an AI [47:14.720 -> 47:19.840] kind of like consulting service. And what I know that they're doing in the Formula One space is [47:19.840 -> 47:26.280] digital twinning, if you're familiar with that. And so that's where you have like a full on digital twin [47:26.280 -> 47:27.920] of your car. [47:27.920 -> 47:32.760] And what Quantum Black does is has the digital twin [47:32.760 -> 47:34.900] actually race the car on track [47:34.900 -> 47:36.360] because you have all of your telemetry [47:36.360 -> 47:37.240] and all of your output, [47:37.240 -> 47:41.300] and you'll have the twin racing the actual like car data. [47:41.300 -> 47:47.260] And the twin will run and put out optimal setups, optimal different things [47:47.260 -> 47:49.600] with what you're currently doing to make the twin [47:49.600 -> 47:52.080] either the same or better than your car. [47:52.080 -> 47:54.560] So you'll wind up where the twin [47:54.560 -> 47:56.440] could be beating the on-track version. [47:56.440 -> 47:58.560] And it is right down identical to the car. [47:58.560 -> 48:01.840] They used it in, I wanna say America's Cup [48:01.840 -> 48:04.960] with Team New Zealand to test hydrofoil designs. [48:04.960 -> 48:08.160] And they were able to cut down on testing [48:08.160 -> 48:11.680] and analysis costs and time by 95% with using this model. [48:11.680 -> 48:14.800] And it basically output by having the actual like data [48:14.800 -> 48:18.080] from the racing boat and the digital twin run [48:18.080 -> 48:20.120] at the same time and race each other. [48:20.120 -> 48:21.880] They were able to put out all of these different [48:21.880 -> 48:24.640] setup options and what were the actual best combinations [48:24.640 -> 48:28.480] for that hydrofoil. So they can do all of these different things and let the digital [48:28.480 -> 48:34.000] twin run against the actual on-track car or put the twin into the simulator, which is what Quantum [48:34.000 -> 48:39.040] Black has been doing in Formula One, is they'll put the twin in the sim and let the twin run in [48:39.040 -> 48:43.440] the simulator and get some data back out as well. You can kind of plug it in right then and there [48:43.440 -> 48:46.460] rather than changing something on the car on track. [48:46.460 -> 48:48.740] We'll go change the twin with some code [48:48.740 -> 48:50.780] and maybe like a piece of math or a model [48:50.780 -> 48:52.700] and let it run and see what happens [48:52.700 -> 48:54.260] and let it race against the car on track [48:54.260 -> 48:55.100] to see its improvement [48:55.100 -> 48:58.860] or just let it run through its iterations and its models [48:58.860 -> 49:00.580] and see what it outputs for us as well. [49:00.580 -> 49:02.540] So I'm aware of that out there. [49:02.540 -> 49:03.500] And then pit row, [49:03.500 -> 49:05.040] I'm actually really curious to see if we [49:05.040 -> 49:11.360] are going to get like a Pit Row in Formula One. I think it's really smart. I think that it's a [49:11.360 -> 49:19.200] matter of time before we get a strategy AI into Formula One. I think we're seeing a lot of OEMs, [49:19.200 -> 49:26.080] a lot of companies, a lot of teams realize that they need to be like a software powerhouse as well, not only just a [49:27.360 -> 49:32.080] like development design powerhouse, if they want to have this kind of stuff in house. It's [49:32.080 -> 49:37.040] it's out there, but not all of it's available. You have to kind of develop it yourself. So I think [49:37.600 -> 49:42.400] we may see that pivot happen. I don't know, but there's some cool stuff out there. So [49:42.400 -> 49:45.760] Quantum Black, you can Google it. It's out there, Pit Row. [49:45.760 -> 49:48.360] We can link, we'll put links out, I think, for both. [49:48.360 -> 49:50.680] There's a good article on both of the Pit Row [49:50.680 -> 49:53.060] and Quantum Black, kind of for our listeners [49:53.060 -> 49:55.600] to dig into a little more, but it's cool. [49:55.600 -> 49:56.440] It's coming. [49:56.440 -> 49:59.240] I think it's just a matter of time before we see more, [49:59.240 -> 50:02.360] I think teams and more cars utilizing it. [50:02.360 -> 50:04.800] Yeah, and that's a great overview, Molly. [50:04.800 -> 50:08.160] I think, you know, people have probably heard [50:08.160 -> 50:11.280] about a lot of the work that happens off track, [50:11.280 -> 50:13.720] in between sessions, you know, [50:13.720 -> 50:16.120] and a lot of this is sort of running through these twins, [50:16.120 -> 50:19.380] as you mentioned, and really helps you to get to the track [50:19.380 -> 50:24.380] with a good setup, but the strategy element of it, [50:24.520 -> 50:26.920] I think, is really cool and [50:26.920 -> 50:30.320] something that I'm looking forward to making its way into Formula One. [50:30.320 -> 50:34.840] Yeah I'm really excited as well. When you pit, how you pit, what tire you take, I [50:34.840 -> 50:39.040] think the multiple tire compounds is gonna be a cool layer for an AI like [50:39.040 -> 50:42.640] that especially because NASCAR there's only one compound and then your wet [50:42.640 -> 50:45.360] tires like you don't get a choice so it's compound and then your wet tires, like you don't get a choice. [50:45.360 -> 50:47.500] So it's just fresh tires, wet tires, [50:47.500 -> 50:49.260] or you don't take any tires. [50:49.260 -> 50:51.800] So I think the multiple compounds will be a cool thing [50:51.800 -> 50:53.700] to see with a model like that as well. [50:53.700 -> 50:55.320] Yeah, absolutely. [50:55.320 -> 50:56.860] Great tech bias segment, Molly. [50:56.860 -> 50:58.900] So my tech bias segment, of course, [50:58.900 -> 51:03.900] is in my wheelhouse a little bit for aerodynamic topics. [51:04.740 -> 51:08.280] So we've been seeing a lot of teams have been [51:08.960 -> 51:12.160] modifying their rear wings as of late. I think I [51:13.280 -> 51:17.740] can't remember where it was. Maybe it was Hungary. We started seeing more teams cutting [51:18.440 -> 51:29.840] sections of the rear wing end plates out. We saw last year, you know, Aston Martin went the other direction. They added the whole armchair. With the couch. Rear wing, right. Yeah, like the couch [51:29.840 -> 51:36.720] armchair, exactly. To, you know, reduce the amount of spillover that they had to [51:36.720 -> 51:41.560] increase the amount of downforce they had from the, especially the first element. [51:41.560 -> 51:45.740] But we're seeing a lot more teams now cutting back [51:45.740 -> 51:48.540] the second element on the end plate. [51:48.540 -> 51:51.400] It's within the regulations, it's allowed. [51:52.380 -> 51:55.860] We should talk about why the end plates are like that. [51:55.860 -> 51:59.480] You know, Formula One's really trying to limit the amount [51:59.480 -> 52:01.420] of, like we talked about, the dirty wake [52:01.420 -> 52:03.860] that's coming off the back side of the car. [52:03.860 -> 52:09.360] And they're allowing for some of the spillover to happen so they actually get this sort of [52:09.360 -> 52:13.740] mushroom like upwash effect, which is one of the main things that's carrying the wake [52:13.740 -> 52:16.900] up and over the following car behind it. [52:16.900 -> 52:20.920] But what teams are starting to do is they're starting to sort of cut back in this end plate [52:20.920 -> 52:21.920] a bit. [52:21.920 -> 52:25.760] And I believe, and I've talked to a few people that would probably know [52:25.760 -> 52:31.280] more than me but and they've also confirmed that their feeling is that you know teams are [52:31.280 -> 52:37.680] mainly looking to reduce drag by doing this especially teams that have an issue where they [52:37.680 -> 52:42.720] want to be able to generate some rear load so they have some rear balance but they also want to be [52:42.720 -> 52:50.440] able to shed drag at high speeds and one of the ways to do that is to reduce the amount of induced drag that you have at high speed. [52:50.440 -> 52:54.940] And the induced drag is where you have then this spillage, kind of this spill over. [52:55.100 -> 53:00.760] So the underside of the wing is a sunction side, the top side of the rear wing is the pressure side. [53:00.760 -> 53:04.540] And so naturally air always wants to move from high energy to low energy, [53:04.540 -> 53:10.800] so it spills from the top to the bottom and by doing this the teams are allowing some of this flow to [53:10.800 -> 53:16.480] move around past this cutout which is reducing their rear load a bit but it's only reducing it [53:16.480 -> 53:22.240] mostly at high speeds and it's reducing the induced drag as well so i think they wouldn't [53:22.240 -> 53:25.120] be doing it if there wasn't a net gain. So [53:25.120 -> 53:28.880] there must be a net gain and I think that this net gain is primarily for them [53:28.880 -> 53:33.600] in the form of induced drag especially at high speeds. There may be a DRS [53:33.600 -> 53:37.700] element to it as well that it might also be playing up with some of kind of the [53:37.700 -> 53:44.420] DRS effectiveness possibly. I haven't dug too much into it but I think this is an [53:44.420 -> 53:46.400] area that as the last half of the [53:46.400 -> 53:49.880] year is progressing and into next year, I'm going to be looking and seeing what teams [53:49.880 -> 53:50.880] are doing around that. [53:50.880 -> 53:54.160] Yeah, I actually, I'm like, you see me over here playing right hand rule. [53:54.160 -> 53:57.460] I think that that could be something we're looking into. [53:57.460 -> 54:00.960] Maybe we just cracked something open on the pod. [54:00.960 -> 54:07.840] That maybe there is an inherent DRS benefit to there because that ties back into that ratio of downforce to drag [54:07.840 -> 54:09.160] and that load to drag ratio. [54:09.160 -> 54:10.440] And I actually would be, [54:10.440 -> 54:13.600] we know that downforce the D stands for drag. [54:13.600 -> 54:16.320] And so I actually would be very curious to see, [54:16.320 -> 54:17.960] and maybe this is something we go play in the data [54:17.960 -> 54:20.600] and I'm sorry if I'm giving anybody this idea for free. [54:20.600 -> 54:25.000] We go look at DRS peak speeds or DRS times [54:25.320 -> 54:28.820] with a wing that is cut versus non-cut and non-trimmed [54:28.820 -> 54:30.640] that has that end and see if there's a difference [54:30.640 -> 54:31.760] we see there on the DRS. [54:31.760 -> 54:34.840] I know like we can't approximate downforce without CFD [54:34.840 -> 54:37.480] and all of that good stuff, I wish we could, [54:37.480 -> 54:39.920] but maybe there's something in the telemetry [54:39.920 -> 54:43.720] between a wing that's cut out and not cut out in that area. [54:43.720 -> 54:45.640] Yeah, because we know that, I mean, [54:45.640 -> 54:47.000] one of the reasons, you know, [54:47.000 -> 54:50.080] there is no magic to Red Bulls DRS. [54:50.080 -> 54:52.060] It really is just that they're able to run [54:52.060 -> 54:53.520] a more loaded wing than others [54:53.520 -> 54:56.640] because they are so much more aerodynamically efficient, [54:56.640 -> 54:58.600] which means that now, of course, [54:58.600 -> 55:01.520] when they have a bigger, you know, [55:01.520 -> 55:04.360] rear wing, then the DRS effect is gonna be higher. [55:04.360 -> 55:06.160] So that's really just the extent of it. [55:07.440 -> 55:11.920] But aside from that, there could be something to this. So yeah, I'm definitely going to dig into [55:11.920 -> 55:16.960] this a little bit more and see if there's something out there. Yeah, no, keep it, keep me posted, [55:16.960 -> 55:24.400] keep us posted on your findings. I'm very curious about that as well, as what might be lurking [55:24.400 -> 55:25.120] in the data. [55:25.120 -> 55:26.840] Cause that actually is a really good thought [55:26.840 -> 55:29.220] about DRS effects of that too, [55:29.220 -> 55:32.840] with the, if they're trying to reduce rear drag [55:32.840 -> 55:34.640] and then you're also reducing drag of DRS, [55:34.640 -> 55:36.760] does it, is that, I don't want to say like, [55:36.760 -> 55:38.480] call it like double DRS or triple DRS, [55:38.480 -> 55:40.720] but that could improve your efficiency maybe, [55:40.720 -> 55:41.560] or improve the overall. [55:41.560 -> 55:43.680] They could be working together, right. [55:43.680 -> 55:44.520] Yeah. [55:44.520 -> 55:45.760] Yes, there's, yeah like hand-in-hand [55:45.760 -> 55:52.080] improve the effectiveness of your DRS because we see DRS efficacy being very important, obviously. [55:52.080 -> 55:57.440] Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so those were two, those were our Tech By segments for episode one. [55:57.440 -> 56:01.280] Yeah. Those were really good ones. We'll definitely be placing some links for anybody [56:01.280 -> 56:11.120] that wants to know more about Quantum Black and some of the other things that you talked about there, Molly, but this has been a good first episode. I think there's much [56:11.120 -> 56:16.880] more to come from us. You know, hopefully our listeners are looking forward to it. I know we're [56:16.880 -> 56:22.640] looking forward to producing more content. And any closing thoughts from you, Molly, before we [56:22.640 -> 56:27.800] sign off our first episode? I think obviously, welcome to Breaking Bias. [56:27.800 -> 56:32.640] And we've got lots of fun stuff coming and lots of exciting content that we're both excited [56:32.640 -> 56:35.320] about with this platform. [56:35.320 -> 56:41.240] And much like the F1 season is back with a bang, we're off with a bang. [56:41.240 -> 56:50.160] And we're excited to be here and excited to kick this off and get it going. That's right, and if you're not following us on Twitter, we are at Breaking Bias Pod. [56:50.560 -> 56:52.560] You can follow us on Twitter. [56:53.300 -> 56:57.520] We will be on YouTube. I'm sure by the time this gets published at some point. [56:57.520 -> 57:02.840] We will be on YouTube creating some content as well. So Molly, it's been a great first episode. [57:03.680 -> 57:06.400] Yes, absolutely. It's been a great first episode. Yes, absolutely. It's been a great first episode. [57:06.400 -> 57:11.680] Really looking forward to more and hopefully everybody comes back for episode two in the [57:11.680 -> 57:28.000] future. Yeah, see you later. Bye everybody. Thank you so much. [57:23.140 -> 57:30.140] .